Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already??

Some people in the recitals are just too darn good. They're not even remotely "beginner" any more.

So, can we just vote them out so the whole enterprise isn't as intimidating as it appears to be for the true beginners?

OK, ok... I'm kidding... sorta. The Subject line was just a cheap ploy to get people to click on the topic.

Here's what I'm actually suggesting:

Everyone says they want more "true beginners" to participate, right? But at the same time, everyone seems so, well, OCD & competitive about getting the perfect performance recorded. Hearing about the pieces being prepared by veterans, going back and listening to prior recitals, it's hard not to feel unworthy when contemplating a first time submission.

I think we could have our cake and eat it too though, by creating a "Senior Circuit" of sorts for those that have moved on from being beginners, but we just can't seem to get rid of them nevertheless (who would want to leave after all?!)

Here's a rough outline of how I'm imagining it would work:

1) Nothing changes in the recital submission process, except that those who participate also have the right to participate in a sort of "kangaroo court" regarding who gets voted into the ABFQR Hall of Fame. This would occur a couple weeks or a month after the recital... There has to be enough time allowed for lots of speculation, informal nominations, falsely modest "guys -- I'm really not all that good" banter, and so on.

2) When the next recital rolls around, the HoF folks go to the back of the line. Everyone submits as they normally do, and they get posted in chronological order, except the cream of the crop (based on prior recital votes) goes at the end.

3) I'd even push it one step further... Why not put all the rookies at the front? If we want them to participate, why not showcase them?


Basically, it would be chronological order of submission within each group:

I) Rookies
II) Veterans
III) Hall of Famers


So... my thoughts on advantages of this approach, or some variant that I'm hoping will be debated below:

a) It would be fun.
b) Getting kicked to the back of the recital would be an honor.
c) The recital builds to the most seasoned performers (more or less) at the end.
d) Encourages new participants by highlighting their submissions first.
e) Encourages participation overall. Not any Tom, Dick, or Harry can vote -- you have to submit to the recital!

The whole point would be to keep it light-hearted. After all, nobody cares all that much where they are in the order today, and that shouldn't change.

I hope that people like this as a general concept... The one aspect that I really don't know about is how disruptive this would be to Monica's well-oiled process. But if the idea has merit, maybe something could be figured out to make administering it not too terribly onerous.

Thoughts??


P.S. If you can rebuild and/or tune your own piano, or play Brahms to near perfection while tipsy, you already have my vote

I vote for simple. It is a huge task to organize the recital as is. Adding more work is a very bad idea. For the last recital there were about six people with one year experience, and most of those were way advanced for one year (eg: completing book two already when the average devout beginner is just finishing book one).

Changing all the rules as suggested might double that, maybe triple it to 18 novice participants, and about double or triple the work too. For this reason, I vote thumbs down on the proposal. I see it as a ton of extra work to coax a few more beginners to upload.

All a beginner needs to do, is do their best. They will only get praise from the forum. They will produce a useful landmark on their beginner journey. Stop over thinking it. Record and upload.

I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons. Don't worry about what others are doing, or if they consider themselves a beginner or not. It is clear enough from the quality of the recording and the brief biographical info given, who is who and what is what. If old timers on this forum want to upload here, and have their friends and others listen I see no harm in it.

A better idea might be a true beginners thread, where only those that have no prior musical experience and less than 500 hours of practice time would be the loose guidelines for those sharing their music. This would be no extra work, with 80% of the benefits.

/edit do add: voting is a bad idea. The proposal says light hearted, but some folks are mean, and some folks are sensitive. There will be hurt feelings and bruised egos with any public vote, that will be much more damaging to the community than any potential benefits. A secret vote doubles the work again, and still means many hurt feelings.

I think Adult Beginner is a state of mind, not a technical level

We're all in this together, and I'm still a beginner at lots of things. Some folks are just shyer than others.

Besides, I think who is "better" is so entirely subjective as to be not votable on I just don't have much I can say about 99% of the classical, and certainly wouldn't vote one way or the other on anyone's skill. And the genres are so wildly different - how, really, can one compare me with Andy Platt (hi, Andy!)?

Do I think some people are way better than I am? Why, yes, I do But I'm not willing to put it to a vote, even if "winning" is supposed to be a good thing.

I *am* willing to reiterate that everyone can submit a piece - it's not a contest, it's a picture of where you are now in your piano journey. I do the best I can, and have never put in a perfect piece. We've had people who've been playing as short a time as a couple of weeks submit. But aside from that encouragement I really have no say over whether someone is intimidated or not, or someone else beats themselves up because their piece isn't perfect (I don't think we have anyone that actually does that).

So if anyone is comparing themselves to me and thinking they don't want to submit unless I'm at the end of the line as a veteran, or whatever the name would be, STOP IT . No one is compared to anyone else. It's just us individual chickens.

My 4 cents

Cathy

Tallguy, I can sense your frustration. This topic has been brought up many, Many, MANY times before over the past several years. I know this because I was the one who constantly kept bringing it up.

Short version: The group as a whole has always said "NO" very clearly.

Piano World has a beginer group (ABF) and an advanced group (pianist corner). If you are wondering where the "Intermediate" group is....well so am I!

Many times in the past the suggestion of breaking up the beginer group into more accurate and compatible 'groupings' has been suggested but as I've mentioned the concept has always been shot down. I personally didn't and still don't agree with this logic for all the reasons you bring up.

The fact is, many of the better players serve as an example as to what you can accomplish from scratch. Something that others may aspire to as well. Many have started out here as true beginners...[Think Pampers!] On the other hand, actual 'real' true beginners, [current day] can easily be intimidated by many of the more advanced performances that will be heard in these recitals.

The problem is a very simple one. Either we leave everything alone as it has been since the inception of the recitals, OR, create a new home {Intermediate Forum] that would be compatible for the more advanced players who started out in the beginner forum and have progressed.

As mentioned, this concept has been shot down many times before but I still think separating the true beginners from the intermediate players from the advanced ones just makes perfect and compatible sense.

Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).

I'm not sure I understand the logic either but I'm on your side with this. My only suggestion is to NOT penalize anyone in any possible way for ....improving! Getting kicked out of the recitals for being to good is not exactly a positive reinforcement. Actually, it is counter productive. Creating a more compatible environment for the different ability levels seems much more fair and reasonable. I just wish we would go that way instead of new members becoming frustrated on an ongoing basis.

But we're not competing with each other, are we? I'd like to believe that we're supporting and helping each other. And besides, I love the range of skills and genres and approaches that can be found here.

I'm not sure how being dead first with your first submission is going to be encouraging. That's a lot of attention, you know? Participating can already be scary. Let's just stick with encouraging everyone to join.

MaryBee, to 'technically' answer your question, no. I don't compete, and others say they don't either. I 100% agree with your position of supporting and helping each other as well as listening to all the various skill levels here.

The fact is however that the subject of the ABF recitals containing lots of beyond beginner level participants does get mentioned literally every single recital. Sometimes the wording is a little camouflaged like "holy cow, I am amazed at the talent here" etc.

In addition, comparing ones self to others is probably an inherent human trait. We can deny that we don't do it, but many still will.

If I were a brand new beginner I would honestly be terrified to enter the current recitals because the level of playing can be very intimidating. Then again, I was terrified as a 16 year old kid getting on the Merrit parkway in Connecticut that used near perpendicular on ramps at the time. [I was in a VW Rabitt....diesel!] I had no choice but to take my best shot and punch it even though I was only driving something that had the pickup of a lawnmower.

The fact is, I made it and ultimately gained more and more confidence. But it WAS really scary at first.

Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it? Seems like a simple way to solve a problem that bugs you. If you tend to the thread, it will stay. If the topics are of interest, it will stay. If not it will fall away. If that thread or threads grow to be monsters, the powers that be may indeed decide to make a separate forum for them.

Same with the true beginners, just start a thread or two, and see. I observe that as a percentage, there aren't very many true beginners around. Most are in either in the fast burner camp, leaping out of true beginner status in a few months, or have vast prior experience.

Well it's not possible for us to always stay at the beginner level. At my first abf recital I played a simple tune that I could barely handle. Everyone else was playing better but I was glad to share what little I could at that point. It's all about sharing your music. It doesn't need to be amazing. I for one am not obsessed with the perfection. I do one or two takes and I post it. I don't have the patience to sit all day and record. My mistakes show but if I can't play it better at that point what's the use of trying to cover them up with edits or too many takes.

I am not a complete true beginner but havent wanted to post in the recital due to being intimidated by the quality.... but then it motivates me to strive further...


And infact.... come what may.... i think i will do it now.


Still think there is a place for an adult student forum....

I've always interpreted 'adult beginner' as somebody who starts or restarts piano playing as an adult; plus, most of the times (but there are exceptions) we are amateurs with no professional goals in mind.

I am one of the 'true' beginners and I don't think I will classify myself as intermediate for at least another 4-5 years. Lots of very good players here claim they are still beginners and it may be true after all - because playing the piano is damn hard!

Personally, I compare myself with other 'true beginners', but I do so just to gauge my progress. Everybody is better than I am right now, but I am encouraged and stimulated by the achievements of most people here, especially those who are self-taught. It keeps me thinking I might get somewhere sooner or later. As for the recitals, I don't think anybody expects much from me, apart from myself, so I just submit something that resembles the level I am at now, minus the red dot syndrome And then, everybody is so kind here that one doesn't need to be intimidated at all. Yes, exposing ourselves can be daunting, but I really think it's one of the best things we can do to improve. I know I don't want to play the piano just for myself all my life, I'd like somebody to listen, even if I'm super-nervous when it happens.

ATallGuy, I can see you put a lotof thought into your plan--- and yet, as I read it I thought .."Nope, can't see this working"

No offense,and I get your point. However I think there are a few reasons for not going ahead with this plan.

Fear of performing for others happens no matter what your level - in any recital there will be a range of performers.

This is not a competition and folks just have to get over that idea.

Segragating the performances involves a lot more work for the organizers - not to mention I personally think it is more fun to listen to a random (as submitted) order of performances, mixing up the beginners and more seasoned players.

I would refuse to participate in a vote to exclude anyone even if said vote was based on "you're too good".... as (I believe ) Sand Tiger said... there's potential for hurtfulness.

It is true that there are folks who have moved beyond beginner, and perhaps an Intermediate forum would be a good idea - but overall, we're all very happy here and I think we fear change.

If we made a new Intermediate Players Forum - we'd then probably want to have IPF (I'm looking for a new acronym ) quarterly recitals. .....Our organizers are in the ABF--- can we get a second set of organizers? (possibly yes) Then...who would dare to play in the IPFQR? Would some folks be criticized for overstepping their abilities and moving up -- or would folks be intimidated and not dare to move up even though they could?

(Oh, actually I think we should call it the Senior
Players so we can have the acronym SPQR too funny!)

Wouldn't we then run into the very same issues we're talking about now, if we create an "Intermediate" category?...We still have folks who are way above Intermediate level in our community, making a new area won't change that.

What I think it comes down to is that each person has to take responsibility for their courage.
I participated in my first recital here without having heard any of the previous recitals.

Have a listen to my early submissions --- now I think -- Oh my! How did I have the nerve to submit that?????? However, -and this is really important: It was the best I could do at that time!
They were realistic performances and they mark my progress. I'm GLAD I didn't listen to recordings because I may have thought I wasn't good enough to participate and that is so untrue. Everyone deserves an opportunity to perform and anyone who doesn't take the opportunity is just acting against their own interests.

To my knowledge there has NEVER been a negative comment on any real beginner's performance, there is only ever support and encouragement.

If folks are intimidated, ..... they just have to get over it and join in the fun!

As a new member I started making posts and comments under the "Pianist Corner" forum. I soon realised that most participants there are way beyond my level, and there seemed to be little interest in my posts and comments. I was a bit reluctant, however, to start posting under the "Adult Beginners" forum, since I have been playing the piano for more than 40 years (in fact, soon 50 years). Actually I have been looking around for an amateur pianist forum (also outside PianoWorld) without finding anything.

If such a forum existed, I would definitely make my posts and participate in the discussions there. But as long as things are organised as they are, I find the "Adult Beginners" forum to be the most interesting option.

When I discovered the quarterly recitals I soon realised that many of the participants were at a level similar to mine, and therefore I decided to submit a piece myself. I found the process of polishing a piece and make recordings of it very useful, and somehow it has helped me improving my skills.

If somebody feel intimidated by a veteran like me, I'm sorry for that. I hope, however, that I'll not going to be kicked out of these recitals unless some alternative is made available.

This is exactly what I would NEVER want to happen.
I would never want anyone to be "kicked out" - even if another alternative were available.

I believe if anyone is intimidated it is their problem, not the problem of a longer-playing more seasoned performer.

(I include myself in the group that sometimes thinks...wow so-and-so is really good....and he/she has been playing the same amount of time as I have ...or even worse LESS!
But I can only repeat, we're not here to compete or (heaven forbid) intimidate - we're here to share and hey, maybe even be inspired!

I think there's definitely a tendency to compare -- even in those who say they do not care. And yes, it can be intimidating to hear other people, who may have more or less experience, knocking it out of the park in a way you're incapable of. I was humbled, recently, by one of the true beginners here, who had uploaded a piece I'd tackled myself not long before. She was playing it almost twice as fast as I ever had, but just as musically. And she'd only started playing two months or so ago!

But as casinitaly, among others, has said: if I let things like that dissuade me from sharing my own music, I'm not going to help anybody; least of all myself. And trying to 'segregate' the recital into different silos, while potentially complicated to pull off on a technical and organizational level, is not really going to solve the problem of some people being too shy to post.

Suppose that, somehow, we implemented the Tall Guy's idea. We would then have three categories of players, roughly divided by level (as determined through voting). But within each category, while controlling somewhat for playing ability, we'd still have people with varying levels of real-world experience. The intimidation would, perhaps, no longer come from the fact that there are so many accomplished players in the recitals who aren't really beginners any more. But I could easily see it come instead from the fact that, hey, this other guy who has been playing for about as long as I have has already been voted into the 'veterans' category, and I am nowhere near his level. Better not participate, then.

So, lots of complications and potential for hurt feelings due to the nature of the voting process, but not a real solution. Sorry, but I don't think it's worth it.

I think, TallGuy, that the actual solution to your problem is to learn to look at your progress differently. We all compare ourselves to others. I do it all the time. But actually, it's not productive to focus too much on the progress we have or haven't made in comparison to others, or even to ourselves at an earlier time (lulls happen). So what I try to do instead, now, is ask myself from time to time: are you still getting value out of this learning process? Are you still having fun?

As I wrote in a different thread not that long ago: the second my answer to one of those questions is 'no' for too many days in a row, I will stop playing. Until then, I will keep plugging along. And yes, I will also occasionally share my music here. Because where's the fun in it, if we can't share?

I know from experience that the ABF, including the Recital, is a friendly place where people won't say anything, unless they have something good to say. So there is no reason for me to be scared of getting crushed. Meanwhile, I have a tangible goal to work towards (at minimum, to have a piece performance-ready once every three months), and a very friendly audience to cheer me on. Great deal, right?

And if it is, then that's what we have to emphasise and advertise to potential new participants -- even if they've only just finished page 10 of Alfred's, Book 1.

As a true beginner I would turn the whole notion back on itself and say leave it as it is. Having thought it through I have the following comments”
• I come to this forum everyday now, I believe I am in the company of beginners and those who might call themselves intermediate. But importantly I am in the company of adults who, for the most part, have started off as beginners. This provides a safe place for me to air my views, ask questions or just watch the posts and perhaps get the odd tip. I would not be here as much if I was talking to 16 year old wonder kids.

• Having more advanced adult players around is a good thing as it means any info I get I can trust. Sorry to say but I will generally be more trusting of the mature person who has a life experience to base their recommendations on.

• As to the recitals, I think true beginners are too busy with learning notes, sight reading, hand exercises, etc, etc to really focus on a piece and then say, I think I will record that and put it out. In my case I am much too eager to move on to the next piece. Having said that I decided to record a piece and will submit because this is a safe place.

• I love listening to all your recitals – it gives me hope. Rather than feel overwhelmed by the standard I am just overwhelmed with the commitment you guys have put in over the years. You guys need to have your place in the sun, you deserve it, but you actually have to be there for the others otherwise we are fumbling around and would simply go elsewhere.

• The recitals also are a wealth of information for the beginners. The pieces that are being played we would generally not hear or even know about so it gives us pause to think what we might like to play in the future.

As always I could rattle on (I have a book in me I think keeps wanting to get out) so enough from me.

Interesting topic. I would think the recital`s demands root out those who are not ready to give it a try. You`ll always have those who struggle with it (most of the pieces are darned hard and unsuitable for a beginner) But I`m looking forward to hearing everybody. This is a place of encouragement for everybody; the ego doesn`t come into it. There`s simply no place like this anywhere else; it`s fun and instructive.

I have to say that I have been encouraged here which simply got me back playing again after 3 years off. There`s nothing on the computer to interest me anymore; my playing has improved in the months I`ve been here; I`ve recorded things for the first time, and taken it from there.

Now, if I goes and buys an expensive acoustic piano, you guys are to blame for my consequential marital difficulties . . .

Maybe for the next recital, you can grade the pieces. So guys with experience won`t swallow up the easier ones . . .and they`ll be challenged too!

[quote=Sand Tiger]Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

Don't ask me because I don't know. That is EXACTLY what the problem is. Lack of accurate and compatible descriptions. You said it yourself in that the adult beginner recitals contain only a small minority of true beginners. We call ourselves a "beginner" group even though the vast majority who participate are not.

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it?

I have, many Many times as stated above. Previous year searches will bring up the topic and the discussions that followed. The overall mindset of the group has always been to ultimately keep the group as it currently is. Sure, the true beginner will be intimidated but at the same time we all were at first. We also didn't have to continue putting ourselves through the self imposed stress but many did anyway. Ultimately, the real 'true' beginners of past years are now some of the better performers on this site. I am certainly NOT for kicking these people out of the recitals because these people have so much to offer today s true beginners in the form of advice and encouragement. In addition, I feel the better performers have earned their right to display their abilities that they worked so incredibly hard at obtaining.

The only problem I have is the inaccurate heading of the word 'beginner' in our forum. Why?, because as you say (correctly) only a very small minority is actually a true beginner. The idea of adding an 'Intermediate' group OR renaming our existing ABF group to include the word 'Intermediate' would of course be more factually accurate. But once again, the concept never sticks. We all discuss it as a group only for it to ultimately die out.

But the exact topic is as predictable in the future as the perpetual 'I have no motivation to play' type of threads. You'll see.

I follow your reasoning.

Talking for myself, stuggling to get a good rendition of Rachmaninov can hardly be called beginner Yet I have done only one public recital and I am playing only 3.5years. So in that respect I think I'm still beginner.

Also, the number of years playing is clearly indicated in the submissions.

>I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons.

+1

Don't you think it is motivating for starters to see where they COULD be after X years if they put in the work? And to hear all these not-perfect but sincere attempts?

I've been playing for many years and I dare say I'd not be considered a beginner but when I listen to the recitals I don't see my performance as anything that stands out when compared to CarolsCC or cgyan, for example, who've only been playing around three years. Maybe my stuff is technically harder.

And then I compare my performance with a professional...and realise I'm really just a beginner.

I've enjoyed all the recitals I've heard, I've enjoyed most of the pieces and, as peterws points out, there's really no place like it anywhere else.

The opportunity to submit is a treasure. I never had anything like this in my youth and even in the mere two recitals I've done I've grown as a player and improved my practise, my focus and my listening as a result of them.

This is a very supportive and encouraging environment. It's great to hear people starting out - it really is, I hear people with less than a couple of years and I say, yeah, that's where I've come from, that's how I was, hey, I'm improving! I don't consider their playing poor or less enjoyable than mine. I'm mostly stunned at the few years they've had compared to the years I'd had when I was at that standard. Then I listen to players like Ganddalf, Amaruk and Peyton and think I've a way to go yet!

It's not a competition - or I wouldn't be here - it's a place to say this is me, here's where I'm at right now. In time I hope to listen again and say that's where I've come from. It's great to hear my peers, encouraging to hear how far I've come, and exciting to hear how far we can go as amateurs.

If you're intimidated by the rest of us...I listened last night to Emmylou Harris strumming a few simple chords on guitar and as soon as she started to sing I realised I put all these hours in over all these years and I'm going nowhere. I'll never match that.

We are who we are and where we are, there's no need to compare ourselves to people who aren't us. Roll the tape, put down your stuff and send it in. Sit back and wait for everyone to tell you what the good bits are! Wherever you are, you'll be glad you did.