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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2065985
04/17/13 10:48 AM
04/17/13 10:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
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Aside from the metric system, there are two other main systems of measurement in use today: the Imperial system of measurement and the USA system of measurement. The two systems are often confused with each other and sometimes one or the other terms are used to collectively refer to both systems (in particular, Europeans often use the term Imperial system to refer to either systems). However, despite similarities between the two, they are different systems. To properly explain their relationship, one needs to consider the history behind them.

The Anglo-Saxons simply adapted the units of measurements used around 1000 B.C. (which are considered to be German in origin), MODIFIED THEM, and renamed them from the English Units or Measurements to Imperial System of Measurement.

Mario is correct; The United States Customary System of weights and measures is derived from the British Imperial System; a traditional system of weights and measures used officially in Great Britain from 1824 until the adoption of the metric system beginning in 1965.

Interesting to note the Imperial system of measurement was mainly invented by Magna Carta.


Dan Silverwood
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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: David Boyce] #2065987
04/17/13 11:02 AM
04/17/13 11:02 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Rochester MN
Originally Posted by David Boyce
I once saw a sign at a beauty spot that gives the length of a loch (lake) in miles and the width in metres!

This is very interesting and it often shows up in an international forum like PW. I shall attempt to translate the above from Scottish (British English?) into American.

I once saw a sign at a scenic overlook that gives the length of a lake in miles and the width in meters!

Even the spelling changes and a beauty spot is a totally different concept.

grin

Why does 'Scottish' have two tees and 'British' has only one?

BTW, I ordered the book.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: Olek] #2065988
04/17/13 11:04 AM
04/17/13 11:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18
Louisiana
Mario Igrec Offline
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Mario Igrec  Offline
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Posts: 18
Louisiana
Hi Olek,

The leads in keys allow you to balance the action statically, i.e. adjust the amount of force (which, since the key is horizontal, is the same as weight) the finger needs to exert to lift the hammer. How much lead is needed to achieve a desirable finger force (45-55 g downweight and 20-30 g upweight) depends on the weight of the hammer and shank assembly, the wippen, the action leverage ratio, and any imbalance in the weight of the two ends of the key itself. The more weight is in the keys, the lighter it is to push down the key slowly. I am sure you know all this, but wanted to state it here for those who may not.

The second effect of the leads is the inertia they introduce. The faster you try to push down the key, the more significant the effect. Pauletti's article appears to deal with that, as does recent research by Darrell Fandrich and John Rhodes. Darrell and John point out that the leads in keys, regardless of their placement (more weight placed closer to the balance rail has less inertia than less weight at the end of the key), have much less significance than the inertia of the hammer assembly. In the book I don't go into calculating inertial forces, but explain its effects and show why placing key leads close to the fulcrum is advantageous, to the extent that key inertia matters by itself. Inertia is not all bad: it tends to even out small variations in finger force, making one's scales, passagework, and arpeggios sound more even. Perhaps that is what Poletti explores in his article (will read it later).

So far as the hammer inertia is concerned, there are two guiding principles:

a) The more massive the hammer, the more inert the system will be and
b) The higher the hammer assembly leverage (the ratio between the distance from the center pin to the molding and from the center pin to the knuckle, roughly speaking), the greater the moment of inertia of that assembly

Empirically, we've known this for a long time: heavy hammers and high-leverage actions play like a truck. You can't play fast repeats pp and it takes extra energy to overcome the added inertia. In general, a lower-ratio action is more suitable for heavy hammers and vice versa. But leverage also affects the key dip, and since the hammer blow distance needs to be within a few mm of the standard of around 47 mm, we don't have much leeway--an action that most pianists would consider modern and desirable has a key dip of around 10 mm and leverage of 5.4-5.8.

There are several devices (wippen assist springs, TouchRail, magnets) that allow reducing the amount of lead in keys, but they don't address the major source of inertia: the hammer and shank. However, from experience, they [i]do[/] make a difference and are worth considering. Another important factor in the management of inertia is how the leverages of the three levers of the piano action (the key, the wippen, and the hammer/shank) are distributed. Traditionally, technicians have lowered the action leverage by moving key capstans, but that doesn't address the leverage of the hammer assembly. It makes more sense to increase the knuckle distance first. This lowers the hammer assembly leverage, reduces the wear, compacting, and building of friction at the knuckle, and substantially reduces the overall action inertia.

The new insights in action inertia are very exciting, and will without doubt further the understanding and control of hammer mass and leverage.

Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2065998
04/17/13 11:43 AM
04/17/13 11:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
Sandy Eggo, California
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OperaTenor Offline
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Just ordered the book!



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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: Mario Igrec] #2065999
04/17/13 11:45 AM
04/17/13 11:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
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canada
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Speaking of weights and measures, I've ordered your book, Mr Igrec: it looks really good. I cited you on the flange center pin adjustment in another thread here, by the way. I hope I got your position on the appropriate degree of friction right!!

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 04/17/13 11:45 AM.
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: Mario Igrec] #2066168
04/17/13 05:33 PM
04/17/13 05:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 297
New York, N.Y.
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Herr Weiss Offline
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New York, N.Y.
@Mario Igrec:

I do have the A.Reblitz's book since '85 and I will get your book soon. I need all the help I can get!!

Thank you, Mr.Igrec,

-H.W.


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2066242
04/17/13 09:11 PM
04/17/13 09:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18
Louisiana
Mario Igrec Offline
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Louisiana
Will check that thread later. I will be at the PTG MARC conference the rest of the week. If any of you plan to be there, come by the book signing booth and say hello or stop by my classes.

Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: Mario Igrec] #2066356
04/18/13 02:08 AM
04/18/13 02:08 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
Originally Posted by Mario Igrec
Will check that thread later. I will be at the PTG MARC conference the rest of the week. If any of you plan to be there, come by the book signing booth and say hello or stop by my classes.


Thanks for you answer, I also will write later.

Wanted to point that the hammer is the part that ask most of our efforts. Pauletti state that the effort to accelerate the shank is what counts, more lead will slow the key on return, but the effort that raise is mostly to breakl inertia, once done all the work is done to raise the hammer, the key mass is of no much importance in itself.

But Poletti talk of rigid elements, and refer mostly to Fortepianas, indeed. His demonstration show that of course the lead cannot "help" us to fasten any heavy loaded action (that was the belief for long that if you add the correct amount of lead the hammer mass is correctly balanced at 50-25 so all is well)


Also for some reason, you are "obliged" to raise the key mass if the hammers are too heavy for a given action, that provide some sort of play ability, may be because it raise the power of the attack.
(I mean if you do not plan to make a total balancing and adaptation of the action or if you do not know that a certain hammer mass correspond to a certain AR, which is/was the case here in some elsewhere reputable shop(s))Hence those "precedent generation" jobs I see regularly.

indeed playing fast and ppp is a challenge then, but I played an extremely heavily loaded keyboard recently, to find that strangely the sensation of inertia provided at the key helps the play-ability.

The source for that is probably more in the better "whip effect" than in any added mass.

Not to say I would recommend that solution (screwed leads up to note 88 on the underside of the keys). plus the balance wear will fasten, mortises, etc.

I see the BW as a diagnostic tool, the leverage within the action is more what gives a good behavior than static balancing, in my opinion.

THe way the leads are installed matters, but more holes in the keys mean more flex despite the lead, in my opinion, so if we want to have more mass around the balance I believe we have to find other solutions that a lot of lead (I also think that a keyboard that have a too strong balancing of the keys by itself is disturbing, if the sensations are not related to a good hammer weight progression. For that, I agree with the idea of D. Stanwood.

As said Ed Foote, as we count on the whippen spring to break the key inertia on return, heigh inertia keys oblige to have too string springs, creating other problems and slowing the return.


Have a good MARC, and good luck for the book, (you do not need luck there, I guess it will do its path because of its value)

BTW you did mention unison with different strings length (which is common even when not visible).

Did you take that in account in the tuning thread , for unison tuning ? (even when tuning the right string first the bridge rock, and notes influence their neighbors)

Greetings






Last edited by Olek; 04/18/13 02:48 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066379
04/18/13 04:57 AM
04/18/13 04:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
Melbourne, Australia
A
ando Online content
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Melbourne, Australia
To those of you who have seen this book and the famous Reblitz book, which one do you think would be a better investment for a novice tech looking to explore the rudiments? Is the terminology and assumed knowledge an issue with either book? Assuming I only want to get one, not both.

Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: ando] #2066391
04/18/13 06:03 AM
04/18/13 06:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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jim ialeggio  Offline
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shirley, MA
Originally Posted by ando
To those of you who have seen this book and the famous Reblitz book, which one do you think would be a better investment for a novice tech looking to explore the rudiments? Is the terminology and assumed knowledge an issue with either book? Assuming I only want to get one, not both.


By far, Igrec's book.

Jim Ialeggio


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066398
04/18/13 06:26 AM
04/18/13 06:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Y book wink (in French is said "Igrec" )

Until Z book





Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066421
04/18/13 07:03 AM
04/18/13 07:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Jim and Isaac,

Keeping in mind what Ando wrote: an "investment for a novice tech looking to explore the rudiments" - I'd be very interested to know which (rudimentary!) aspects fall short in Reblitz's book?

I bought Reblitz's book for exactly this purpose, and it's served me really, really well. I haven't seen Igrec's book, but as a novice looking to explore the rudiments, I found Reblitz, which costs a fraction of the price, fantastic "bang for my buck".


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066429
04/18/13 07:15 AM
04/18/13 07:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
So he may get both, but then it is even better to have the Forss, than Reblitz, but the budget "documentation" begin to be large.

The Y book is not dated as the Reblitz when it comes to technologic concepts.

Then, I certainly did not read it ... So...


Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: Mark R.] #2066526
04/18/13 11:06 AM
04/18/13 11:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
I'd be very interested to know which (rudimentary!) aspects fall short in Reblitz's book?


The piano technology field has changed quite a bit since the Reblitz book was first published. Igrec's book is much more thorough and is up to date with the latest and best research and techniques.

Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066595
04/18/13 02:05 PM
04/18/13 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Yes, thanks, I realise that Igrec's book is state-of-the-art. But as I read it, that wasn't Ando's question.

I was just wondering whether Reblitz is so badly outdated that a novice (!!) looking to explore rudiments (!!) would really be better advised to spend four times the money (and if so, why)?

(Edit: If thread participants feel I'm going around in circles, please just ignore this.)

Last edited by Mark R.; 04/18/13 02:07 PM. Reason: given in post.

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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066604
04/18/13 02:24 PM
04/18/13 02:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada

There are lots of technical and instructional books on piano technology. Some, written years ago, have information that is now outdated or describe processes that have been improved.

Several examples would be;

Piano tuning and Allied Arts by Dr. Braid-White MA, Mus D

The Modern Piano by Lawrence Nalder

A Treatise on the Art of Pianoforte Construction by Samuel Wolfendon

These books, along with many other examples I could list, while interesting to read, contain materials, and technical processes that are now outdated.

How would a novice identify which are the current processes and which are the outdated ones without some kind of guidance?

Sure, we all have to have a starting point for learning; for a beginner is it not best to go for the current thinking, and then later on, if interested, explore what came previous?

This would also cause the learner to think of or perhaps explore what is coming for the future.

Approached this way teaches the novice how to fish rather than handing them a fish.



Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066665
04/18/13 04:40 PM
04/18/13 04:40 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 141
Hortonville, Wisconsin
showard Offline OP
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The Reblitz book can still be a good resource. Obviously there is a big price difference and if all you can afford is the Reblitz book, it still has very good applicable content. If you want more up to date information, Mario's book is a very good investment. "Pianos Inside Out" I feel also has a greater quantity of material and covers some topics that aren't covered in the Reblitz book. You could compare it to choosing a tuning hammer. You can purchase an $80 tuning hammer which would serve you very well, or you can purchase a $350 tuning hammer which will give you more control and help you to tune the piano better with less effort. You just need to weigh the options to know if spending the extra money is worth it to you.


Steve Howard
Piano Technician
Owner of Howard Piano Industries
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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066692
04/18/13 05:16 PM
04/18/13 05:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
The main problemwith Reblitz is that no concept is incluede, only descriptions, it does not help at all to understand why things are done.

Main problem of the technical books.

You can read Reblitz 100 times and still have no idea of what mean regulation on a vertical or a grand. Idem for voicing and I say nothing about tuning.

Sorry to be rude, but this book is sort of collection of interviews and the techs ar rarely very good to explain WHY they do things.


Last edited by Olek; 04/18/13 10:07 PM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066727
04/18/13 06:33 PM
04/18/13 06:33 PM
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Posts: 961
Kalamazoo Michigan
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RPD Offline
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Kalamazoo Michigan
Got my copy a few days ago. Really, really well written book. Worth every dollar and I can't encourage everybody enough!!! Its a must have!

Comparisons with earlier works Like Reblitz are not that helpful. Reblitz is a great resource but this book intends, by design, to delve much deeper.

Get both. Get them all. For 5-600 dollars you can get a dozen or so of the best books written.

Just my 2cents (sharp) worth ....


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Re: New Book - Pianos Inside Out [Re: showard] #2066733
04/18/13 06:48 PM
04/18/13 06:48 PM
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Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Agreed Rick,

To compare technical books written on the same subject in different time periods is an exercise in futility. One will always be slightly ahead or behind the other.

Jim Ialeggio’s posting on the previous page is an excellent and very clear explanation about technical books and how they evolve over time.

But, true to this imagined technical forum members who are not even technicians will find something wrong and post their opinion about the “ wrongness" of it all.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
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