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Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pv88 #2060872 04/07/13 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by voxpops
Yamaha is a solid choice, but, unlike Roland and Kawai, you will have to put up with stretched samples, as opposed
to 88-note sampling.


@voxpops,

There is one exception:

If you are able to find and purchase a Clavinova CLP-990 model (990, or, 990M) from 2001, it does in fact have 88-note stereo sampling.


But it's 2001 technology. One has to wonder if Kawai or others have come up with better action between this time. http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2046320/Yamaha%20Clavinova%20CLP-990.html

I've read that old digital DPs are quickly superceeded by new models in many aspects. Plus, there wouldn't be any warranty on that thing.

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Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060873 04/07/13 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
There's so many software issues with it that it makes my stomach churn.

I glanced at the links... unless I missed something, there is only one issue that has been reported, and it is unclear as to whether it is software or hardware (the endless "please wait..." at boot). Considering how many Casios have been sold (and how many people have them even just on this forum) and how rarely the problem has come up, I"m not sure I'd consider it chronic.

But you bring up a good point that console models are not easy to transport (for service or otherwise), so you may want to buy a brand (or buy from a dealer) who specifically offers in-home service. I don't know whether or not any particular brands (or stores) have an advantage here over others, but if that's a distinction that favors some other brand over Casio, it would be worth consideration. (EDIT: I just saw in another thread that the Casio Celvianos do come with in-home service)

Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
think the issue is that Casio used inferior flash memory. Why? Because just to format 16 megabytes of their flash drive took forever! I suspect they use some sort of flash memory that is really old stock. I didn't expect it to be fast, but not super duper slow. It took many minutes.

I don't know what the Casio flash you're talking about is for. But if the Casio has any writable executable flash whose contents persists between boots, it could be expensive NOR flash rather than cheaper NAND flash, which naturally is very slow to format/write, could that be the issue? This is what happens with Nord and Yamaha flash memory, it is expensive flash, but very slow to write.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Distinction_between_NOR_and_NAND_flash

Last edited by anotherscott; 04/07/13 09:56 PM.
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
Charles Cohen #2060877 04/07/13 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
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Virtual piano? Tell me more about it. Might as well try it since I have the AP-620 should I not decide to sell it and get something else.


PS -- I suspect that the eventual replacement for my PX-350 (if it ever happens), is going to be Pianoteq or a Roland. I am impressed by the lushness of their sounds.


Thanks Charles, you've been excellent with your details. I'll check it out. Word of advice, whichever brand you go with, do heavy research into their support before and after the warranty period. I will never go back to a Casio again.

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
anotherscott #2060884 04/07/13 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoworldanon


Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
think the issue is that Casio used inferior flash memory. Why? Because just to format 16 megabytes of their flash drive took forever! I suspect they use some sort of flash memory that is really old stock. I didn't expect it to be fast, but not super duper slow. It took many minutes.

I don't know what the Casio flash you're talking about is for. But if the Casio has any writable executable flash whose contents persists between boots, it could be expensive NOR flash rather than cheaper NAND flash, which naturally is very slow to format/write, could that be the issue? This is what happens with Nord and Yamaha flash memory, it is expensive flash, but very slow to write.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Distinction_between_NOR_and_NAND_flash


I disagree with your assessment with NOR vs. NAND. That's totally irrelevant. What's at issue is quality of the chip. Modern SSD uses Toggle NAND flash. Take for example the plextor M3 drives, they are superior in terms of reliability and you can check yourself in the reviews. However, what you should have mentioned is the difference between SLC vs. MLC if NANDs are used. But all these are moot. I doubt NOR are typically used these days. If you're not sure about what's in these pianos, NOR and NAND or even what these pianos use, it wouldn't help to bring it up. issue is back to reliabilty, and in the links, I haven't found terminal errors from the Yamahas. And not everybody write reviews. There's MANY reviews across casio models that have the same issue. Check out the costco and amazon reviews.

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060886 04/07/13 04:32 PM
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Pianoworldanon, The only way to know the Virtual Piano sound is to experience it. And that is to experience how it sounds and feels while playing through the keyboard. I clearly remember being blown away by the quality and versatility of the Roland "V-Piano".

The choices of quality DPs priced under 6K are many and each offers features that are designed to support different musical applications. For example: I was recently at our local Guitar Center messing around on a Korg Krome (if I remember right)that had an amazing array of sampled guitar distortions and a very well designed pitch bending wheel.

I'm not ready to paint my face and wear a wig, but I did have a lot of fun for 20 minutes or so. I can only suggest you buy from a reliable retailer and you take the time to find the keyboard that best fits your applications and offers some room for your musical growth.




"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060902 04/07/13 04:50 PM
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Pianoworldanon:

Before you go out and buy something else, have you tried connecting your Casio to external speakers or through a stereo?

Sad to say, but my experience is don't buy a digital for sound. Unless you can afford an Avant Grand, digital pianos are never totally satisfying with sound.

You don't have to invest a lot but if you can get an active sub with two decent bookshelf speakers you will hear a vast improvement. The real set up would be to get an AVR with a 2.1 or better.

I spent a lot of time and money chasing VSTs and computer compatibility etc and finally gave up. I bought a good brand of speakers with an active sub, and my Kawai CA-63 has improved dramatically. I now look at buying digital pianos like buying a high def tv. You don't buy the tv for the sound quality. I no longer have now worries about latency / computer crash etc., and the sound is no longer tinny or twangy. I even received some compliments from a few people who have acoustic uprights in their homes. Then they really get jealous when I put on the headphones and show them how I can practice at night without disturbing anyone.


If you have a stereo or home theater that you can try your Casio on, try that and see how it works before you go spending more. I was pleasantly surprised.


Czar
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060905 04/07/13 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
I disagree with your assessment with NOR vs. NAND. That's totally irrelevant. What's at issue is quality of the chip. Modern SSD uses Toggle NAND flash.
...
If you're not sure about what's in these pianos, NOR and NAND or even what these pianos use, it wouldn't help to bring it up. issue is back to reliabilty

The NOR/NAND distinction was brought up to address the question of write speed, not the issue of reliability. SSDs use cheaper NAND flash which functions as pseudo-storage, whereas pricier NOR flash functions as pseudo-RAM, but write times are way, way slower. They are used for different purposes and are not interchangeable. I was only suggesting that it could possibly explain the slow write speed. But as for reliability, the Casios I've gigged with (PX-500L, PX-310, PX-3) have all been completely reliable. Our opinions do tend to be colored by our personal experiences.

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060936 04/07/13 05:41 PM
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I must admit to being drawn to the Casio. It has, after all, a load of extra voices and a 17 track recorder (the AP 650) but, as you say, it didn`t sound good on Youtube anywhere. And I don`t have a Casio dealer near me. But I`ve tried all the rest and been unimpressed. They lack character (imo of course) although I liked the ES 7 from Kawai and it looked the part.

The one which impressed me most for sound was the DGS 620 from Yamaha; cheap and cheerful. They also have a YDP 240 something or other which is similar in sound. I`ve been happy wi that particularly for simple recording. It`s not state o` the art but you`d save money and electricity. The output is 6W per channel . . .!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
anotherscott #2060938 04/07/13 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
I disagree with your assessment with NOR vs. NAND. That's totally irrelevant. What's at issue is quality of the chip. Modern SSD uses Toggle NAND flash.
...
If you're not sure about what's in these pianos, NOR and NAND or even what these pianos use, it wouldn't help to bring it up. issue is back to reliabilty

The NOR/NAND distinction was brought up to address the question of write speed, not the issue of reliability. SSDs use cheaper NAND flash which functions as pseudo-storage, whereas pricier NOR flash functions as pseudo-RAM, but write times are way, way slower. They are used for different purposes and are not interchangeable. I was only suggesting that it could possibly explain the slow write speed. But as for reliability, the Casios I've gigged with (PX-500L, PX-310, PX-3) have all been completely reliable. Our opinions do tend to be colored by our personal experiences.


"SSDs use cheaper NAND flash which functions as pseudo-storage, whereas pricier NOR flash functions as pseudo-RAM"

Your words:
NAND = pseudo storage.
NOR = pseudo-RAM.

If you've read the who wiki, you'll learn that the NOR was used so that it doesn't have to update the whole page, instead, it could be accessed ramdonly, but it doesn't mean anything in regards to speed. It's about the method of access. The discussion of chips are completely tangent to topic.

And if you were interested to know about speed, as I mentioned the Nand that goes into my SSD is much quicker than whatever casio put in there, as I've mentioned it took many minutes to format 16 megabyte.

In addition, you did say "I don't know what the Casio flash you're talking about is for. But if the Casio has any writable executable flash whose contents persists between boots, it could be expensive NOR flash rather than cheaper NAND flash, which naturally is very slow to format/write, could that be the issue? "

" But as for reliability, the Casios I've gigged with (PX-500L, PX-310, PX-3) have all been completely reliable. Our opinions do tend to be colored by our personal experiences."

Your conjecture does not help regardless if it's NOR or NAND. Please drop it. This thread is about sound quality, not reliability. If you want to talk about reliability, there's another thread I made.

Last edited by pianoworldanon; 04/07/13 06:02 PM.
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
peterws #2060967 04/07/13 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
I must admit to being drawn to the Casio. It has, after all, a load of extra voices and a 17 track recorder (the AP 650) but, as you say, it didn`t sound good on Youtube anywhere. And I don`t have a Casio dealer near me. But I`ve tried all the rest and been unimpressed. They lack character (imo of course) although I liked the ES 7 from Kawai and it looked the part.

The one which impressed me most for sound was the DGS 620 from Yamaha; cheap and cheerful. They also have a YDP 240 something or other which is similar in sound. I`ve been happy wi that particularly for simple recording. It`s not state o` the art but you`d save money and electricity. The output is 6W per channel . . .!


Yep, I searched all over youtube, and I wasn't impressed with the AP-620 as well. There's a lot of "talk" by the people giving the review and little play.

Here's another thread about the AP-650 where people there aren't impressed.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1985491/1.html

I too thought my AP-620 was over hyped. Though it didn't sing, I didn't expect the muffled highs and the there's a lack of dynamic sound to it. I made the same mistake as the person did in the above link by buying it off a good online review. Big mistake.

Last edited by pianoworldanon; 04/07/13 06:18 PM.
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2060985 04/07/13 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
If you've read the who wiki, you'll learn that the NOR was used so that it doesn't have to update the whole page, instead, it could be accessed ramdonly, but it doesn't mean anything in regards to speed.

WRITE speed is dramatically different between the two kinds of flash. I only mentioned it as a possible answer to your complaint about flash write speed in the Casio, that it doesn't necessarily mean they are using substandard or "old stock" as you suggested.

Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
This thread is about sound quality, not reliability. If you want to talk about reliability, there's another thread I made.

I've already posted my answers to your question about sound quality. My comments on reliability were in response to your comments elsewhere in this same thread. ("There's so many software issues with it that it makes my stomach churn" and "issue is back to reliabilty"). If you didn't want anyone to talk about reliability in this thread, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up.

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2061015 04/07/13 08:10 PM
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Fine, anything but a Casio in terms of sound and reliability.

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2061129 04/08/13 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoworldanon
I bought the Casio online after good reviews, but I regretted the purchase not only due to the muffled sound but also other reasons too.

My theory is that maybe companies that produces Acoustic Grand Pianos or licenses the sound from these well known acoustic pianos give better sound? I don't think Casio makes acoustic pianos and thus the difference in quality of sound.

Did you listen to Casio through good quality headphones or monitors? (Amateur Jerry already asked this, but you didn't answer.)
Did you listen to Yamaha and Kawai, which in your opinion produce better sound, using the SAME headphones or monitors?

Casio allegedly uses Steinway samples in their digital pianos (I wasn't able to quickly find a proof though). It's up to personal preference whether Casio or e.g. some Yamaha pianos have better sound, but it certainly isn't a result of Casio not manufacturing acoustic pianos.


Kawai CA65 :: Galaxy: Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Giant :: Pianoteq 5 :: Kontakt 5 :: Reaper :: True Keys pianos
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
PtJaa #2061228 04/08/13 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PtJaa
uses

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means!"

Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2061518 04/08/13 08:33 PM
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xorbe, What does the word "uses" mean?


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Your preference of DP piano sound from various brands.
pianoworldanon #2061682 04/09/13 02:55 AM
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@pianoworldanon

You have said you live 2 hours from a place where a DP could be repaired, and you are very concerned about reliability and after-sale service (now about sound).
There's a lot to read in the forum, but perhaps the first thing is to change your attitude. You don't like your Casio, and you didn't make a good purchase. Ok, then try to learn some lesson from it all that help you in the future.
How about negotiating some (3 year?) home assistance with the dealer (perhaps at the cost of some extra money), like an insurance?
And with regards to the sound...nothing better than a live test.
Yamaha: round, stretched, well built, old technology, reliable. Your daught, you and grandma will al like it!
Kawai: bright, dynamic, risky, innovative, more character, hard to drive.
Software pianos: I guess it should be your choice. Better overall sound (and more customizable), you can choose every component in the sound chain (good 2nd hand options) and get spare parts when needed...this, along with maybe some sertraline would do it easier, from my own experience smile



Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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