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#2060977 - 04/07/13 07:43 PM Speaker suggestions for V Piano  
Joined: Feb 2013
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maximumtiti Offline
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Hello all,
I just purchased a V Piano an was looking for opinions on a speaker setup. I have about $500 to spend. The room size is about 900 sq ft. I was looking at either a pair of Roland CM30's or the Yamaha Stagepass 300. Does anyone have a suggestion as to the better option between the two or even other suggestions for that amount of money? Thanks for any help!
- Ronnie

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#2060982 - 04/07/13 07:57 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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voxpops Offline
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Wales
Ronnie, it's not clear from your post whether this will be a domestic situation or a restaurant/club/small auditorium, and whether it's a "fixed" installation or mobile.

I have the CM30s, and while they're very good for a mini PA or stage monitors, I recently purchased a pair of Yamaha HS80m studio monitors for home use ($500 the pair). Placed on monitor stands with Auralex foam pads, these are tremendous speakers that capture every detail of the sound, and can handle the bass pretty well, too. However, I wouldn't suggest the HS80s for gigging.

The CM30s are less detailed and don't have as flat a response as the HS80s, but they are rugged, reliable and sound good despite losing a little at the bass end. The Stagepas systems offer more power than the Rolands, and a lot of people are very pleased with them, but I have only heard them briefly in a store and so cannot really comment.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
#2061054 - 04/07/13 10:48 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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maximumtiti Offline
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Thanks for the advice...It is a domestic situation. I am merely putting it in my basement. I tried to hook it up to my home theater receiver via a Digital Optical cable, but I didn't like the results...there is a noticeable delay from the time a key is depressed to when it comes out through the speakers. Did you use a subwoofer in conjunction with your Yamaha HS80m's? If not, is the bass significant? Thanks again for your suggestions.

#2061062 - 04/07/13 11:03 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted by maximumtiti
Did you use a subwoofer in conjunction with your Yamaha HS80m's? If not, is the bass significant? Thanks again for your suggestions.

You're welcome.

I have not attached a sub. When I researched the HS50s and HS80s, most owners seemed to be content with the 80s as is. I found that the bass is adequate with them. It's perfectly possible to start with just the main speakers and add a sub at a later stage, if you felt it lacking.

Given the cost of the matching sub, I've heard of people purchasing a much lower priced Yamaha sub and using the aux send from a small mixer to drive the sub (with the main outs going to the HS80s). Of course, with a V-Piano, you might be able to use the 'B' outputs to send the signal direct to the sub without the need for a mixer, but I'm not sure of the way the two sets of outputs are configured.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
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#2061085 - 04/08/13 12:46 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Quote
. . . I have about $500 to spend. The room size is about 900 sq ft. I was looking at either a pair of Roland CM30's or the Yamaha Stagepass 300. Does anyone have a suggestion as to the better option between the two or even other suggestions for that amount of money? Thanks for any help!
- Ronnie


My singing group uses the Yamaha Stagepas 300 system. It's got 8" woofers, and horn-loaded tweeters. Our normal space is probably about 1000 ft2, and the system fills it nicely. It sounds pretty good.

I think the Roland CM30 uses 6" woofers, and I don't know if it's got a tweeter or not.

Two problems with the Stagepas:

1. there's no headphone output, if I remember right.

2. There's no way to use a separate EQ or effects box. With a V-piano, that shouldn't be a problem -- there's an EQ and effects built into the piano.

There is an equivalent unit from Fender -- a "Fender Passport". My local dealer suggested the 150-watt Passport as a decent digipiano loudspeaker. They come in various sizes.

. charles

PS -- I haven't used the Stagepas for my digipiano yet. It'll be interesting . . .

PPS -- I just checked the Stagepas 300 specs. The amps are "class D" ("bang-bang" or pulse-width-modulated technology). They're distortion-free below 100 watts (each). 10% THD at 150 watts. So the sound will get muddy at high volumes, but 100 watts/channel is a _lot_ of sound.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 04/08/13 12:47 AM.

. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2061091 - 04/08/13 01:29 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: Charles Cohen]  
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maximumtiti Offline
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Thanks for the advice....how is the bass on the Yamaha StagePass? Do you think it needs a separate subwoofer or is the bass adequate?

#2061168 - 04/08/13 05:59 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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Vectistim Offline
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Have you considered some sort of PA system: a mixer/amp and two passive speakers.

I bought the cheapest set I could find new on ebay with 12" speakers[1] with your larger budget (well about twice the size mine was) no doubt you could step up the quality a few notches.

Hmm, just looked up Stagepass and see it is some form of PA system!

[1] Essentially I wanted something to be able to power the bass not only for the piano, but mainly for rumbly pedal pipes on my virtual organ, and for that I do think the bigger speakers are worthwhile.

#2061192 - 04/08/13 08:42 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: Vectistim]  
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maximumtiti Offline
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Does the mixer/amp give me any advantages? I don't really know anything about them.

#2061216 - 04/08/13 10:18 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: Charles Cohen]  
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voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
I think the Roland CM30 uses 6" woofers, and I don't know if it's got a tweeter or not.

It's a 6.5" coaxial two-way speaker.

Quote
There is an equivalent unit from Fender -- a "Fender Passport". My local dealer suggested the 150-watt Passport as a decent digipiano loudspeaker. They come in various sizes.

Someone I know uses a Passport system with an older Roland piano for small jazz gigs. It actually sounds pretty good. (A little ugly for a domestic setup, though, IMO.)


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
#2061282 - 04/08/13 01:23 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Charles Cohen  Offline
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Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by maximumtiti
Does the mixer/amp give me any advantages? I don't really know anything about them.


It gives you a relatively inexpensive, compact, easy-to-move, easy-to-set-up system.

In answer to somebody's question about "is there enough bass response?":

I haven't tried my piano through the Stagepas 300. But with 8" woofers, there should be enough bass for the lowest notes on the keyboard. There's a thread in this Forum about the spectrum of piano tones. It turns out that the fundamental frequencies (in the bass) are quite low, but there's little sound energy in them. Most of the sound energy is up higher, above 50 Hz. And for that, 8" drivers should be adequate.

Another way to look at the question:

. . . Most people are happy with 8" (or less) powered-monitor loudspeakers. So the 8" drivers in the Stagepas 300 are probably OK.

For _organ_ sounds -- that's a different story. They have substantial energy at the fundamental frequency, and (IMHO) 8" drivers won't shake your gut enough to be satisfying.

. Charles

PS -- Someone I know is determined that the Stagepas 300 is too small for _his_ singing group, and he's set on a Stagepas 500. And if you want to get really enthusiastic, there's always the Yorkville E10P (which I've used, and really like):

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=2&type=29&id=371



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2062388 - 04/10/13 01:11 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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rnaple Offline

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rnaple  Offline

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Rocky Mountains
Just a couple things to think about.

In audio. High amounts of power in the amp. The secret isn't that it can play loud. It's that it produces proper bass at low levels. Don't have to up the bass overall to obtain proper bass. Also... you get good dynamic range at low volume levels. This is very impressive to hear.

A sub woofer. A properly set up sub woofer you should not hear. It will add to the higher notes. Will add much to an 8 inch woofer. But you don't actually hear the sub.

I myself am working with an 8 inch woofer. It is good. I know it doesn't give as good of bass as if I were to add a sub. I can't do that. I live in an apartment.
I have 280 watts per speaker. That gives me good dynamic range. I don't play loud.


Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
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#2063160 - 04/11/13 10:34 PM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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MacMacMac Offline
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You don't hear the sub???
Then why buy one? smile

#2063270 - 04/12/13 02:58 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: MacMacMac]  
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You don't hear the sub???
Then why buy one? smile


Not to put words in his mouth .... but ...

He probably means that the sound from the sub does not "separate" from the overall sound so you hear it distinctly. It blends seamlessly.



Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2063273 - 04/12/13 03:04 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by maximumtiti
Does the mixer/amp give me any advantages? I don't really know anything about them.


I just added the Mackie ProFx8 mixer to my system and I think it has made a big difference in the overall quality of my sound. The FX option allows for the addition of just enough color to soften the sound. It also gives me more punch through my Focal monitors.

My previous mixer was the Mackie 402-VLZ3.



Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2063299 - 04/12/13 05:28 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: dmd]  
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Marko in Boston Offline
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The mixer was a huge help for me to control the sound with studio monitors. I just added a Mackie 802-VLZ3 which was extremely helpful to get the right sound with my Mackie MK2 MR5. I even bypass my subwoofer now because the MK2MR5 have plenty of bass if needed and easily controlled with the mixer. I have a very pure rich sound now and very happy. Plus I plug everything else into the mixer; headphones, mic, ipad, laptop, etc. Just a great tool to have regardless.

My previous mixer was also Mackie 402-VLZ3 for a short time. Excellent compact mixer, but outgrew quickly as I keep learning and adding items to my setup.

Last edited by Marko in Boston; 04/12/13 05:29 AM.

KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2073857 - 04/30/13 12:17 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: maximumtiti]  
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Back to the OP:

. . . A Roland V-Piano in a 900 sq ft room.

I finally got my group's Stagepas 300 set up in my "study" -- 9' x 13', about 120 sq ft -- and connected to my PX-350.

Played loudly, hammering the bass and treble, I got the "-6 dB" light to flash on peaks. So I was running around 80 watts! [The Stagepas starts distorting at around 200 watts, I think; the spec is 10% THD at full power.]

My guess, based on that:

. . . A Stagepas 300 won't give realistic piano sound volumes in a 900 sq ft room.

. . . You'll want more power.

Having said that, the piano sounded _great_. I've long believed that the limiting factor on the PX-350 was its loudspeakers; now, I have evidence.

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2073981 - 04/30/13 07:43 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You don't hear the sub???
Then why buy one? smile


i've learned that using a sub with a solo piano setup is tricky. just a tad too much and it doesn't sound natural or realistic, just a tad too little and your "why buy one/why bother" becomes operative.

I'm running one and I think its adding something, but i couldn't swear to it.

there is no question that if you can actually "hear it", you have it too loud.


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; True Keys American; UVI Yamaha C7; Ravenscroft 275; Garritan CFX
#2073990 - 04/30/13 08:04 AM Re: Speaker suggestions for V Piano [Re: dmd]  
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rnaple Offline

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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You don't hear the sub???
Then why buy one? smile


Not to put words in his mouth .... but ...

He probably means that the sound from the sub does not "separate" from the overall sound so you hear it distinctly. It blends seamlessly.



I didn't get back to this until now.
dmd is right. Also...

Bass requires much power. Without the power. The bass just wimps out. Everything it works with wimps out also. I think you might relate to this better in "sympathetic string resonance" in a piano. To get it correct, you need the bass response.

I heard a system years ago that had two small satellite speakers, and a sub woofer. Boy did those little speakers sound big.

It doesn't matter where you put a properly set up sub woofer. You don't hear it directly. You should as much feel a proper sub as hear it. Hear it indirectly through the upper frequencies. That's why it's called a "sub". It should also release the speakers from using up power trying to put out the bass. It should add to them.

You've all seen that small button to boost bass when the volume is low on a stereo. This is a bandaid fixit. It boosts bass improperly. Giving everything an off colored bass sound. Proper bass response at low levels requires power. In other words; headroom on the amp.

You hear all these kids with their stereo in pumping out bass. That's all you can hear and feel. They're using the bass wrongly. It sounds like a joke. It is a joke. What they're listening to is a joke.

I've got a keyboard with a good midi on it now. Boy am I having problems learning to play the dynamic range. fff down to pp. I am just a beginner. I would probably be having the same problems trying to play a concert grand.

I can understand where people are coming from when they talk about some of these new monitors that are overdoing the bass. I don't mean to pick on anybody. They build these less expensive monitors because people buy them. They like the extended, and unreal bass. That isn't right. They just don't know. They haven't heard a really good system with proper bass set up.

This leads me to be interested always in the JBL monitor setup with a matching sub woofer. I haven't heard them. They have (I think) 5 inch and 8 inch speakers. Both with this matching sub. Very interesting. JBL can turn out the best stuff. I have also heard much from them that is to make them money and not anything special. Leaning on the name to make a whole bunch of money.

EDIT: I also think Kawai's sound board for the 95 sounds interesting. I haven't heard one. I look forward to it.

The most accurate speakers I ever heard were Klipschorns. Look at them. A smaller speaker on top with this big box, 4 feet tall under them. No exposed speaker in the big box.

Also to get good tight bass. Not sub bass but bass. You really do need a good bass speaker like an 8 or better 12 inch. I'm talking good tight bass here. Where the difference between a bass guitar and drums sticks out big time. Each of those drums sounds extremely different. You also really need a sub. to help with sound, not tight.

Last edited by rnaple; 04/30/13 08:13 AM.

Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
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