Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Why Aren't Tier 1 Pianos More Common?

I think that one has to look at, and consider, many business factors in determining the answer to the OP's question. For example, when Steinway was owned by Columbia, few realized that the largest Artist Management company in North America was, Columbia. And, in the recording industry, the lions share of recording contracts was controlled by....drum roll please.... Columbia.

Now, if you're a young Artist, and you want good management and a recording contract, what instrument do you play????!!!
I can't say I fault Steinway because, business is business and I probably would have done something similar if I were Columbia. In Europe, however, Deutsche Gramophone, and a significantly different artist management system allowed for Artists and institutions to be more "independent" in their preference for piano brands.

And let's face it, Steinway D's are very nice. Of course, has anyone really heard a 9' ANYTHING that didn't have a decent and somewhat impressive sound? Think about it, if you put a 9' string on a washtub and pluck it, it's pretty impressive. BUT, in the smaller pianos, weaknesses in design or craftsmanship become very transparent. ENTER, Stage left Yamaha and Kawai!

Clearly, the C series Yamaha's and GS series Kawai's were targeting the consumer for smaller Steinways, and they were successful to the point of forcing Steinway to develop the Boston product line. On the European side of the isle, manufacturers like Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, and Bosendorfer made great inroads in the 90's on a consumer level but could not sufficiently crack the contract allegiances of major concert venues in the USA. That remains the conundrum to this day.

BUT, (there's my big but again ) from what I have seen on my local level, nearly every purchase by a major institution who purchases a new Steinway concert grand since 2000 has been a Hamburg Steinway, not American. Perhaps this is because it alleviates the contractual issues while somewhat addressing Artistic performance preferences. In Europe, the purchases I have been informed of are spread across the spectrum of "Tier 1" pianos and often include products from several manufacturers. This offers Artists a choice when performing various works at a venue ....novel idea. After all, imagine the success of Baskin Robbins with only Vanilla!

The Bosendorfer played by Valentina Lisitsa in the below tube has a confusing bass in comparison to a Steinway. I vote for Steinway, I hear: Steinway's bass is more clean, well-defined and more dramatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi5VTBdKbFM

In Britain a few years ago, a small concert venue in the countryside acquired a Bösendorfer Imperial. They had no trouble getting big name pianists who normally wouldn't perform in such a small hall, who reportedly were willing to perform for much less than their usual fees just for the chance to give recitals on the instrument.

Not to mention that in such an out-of-the-way place, they probably wouldn't get hassled by a certain piano manufacturer to use their piano....

I think the general consensus is that the Steinway bass on a B or D is not particularly clean compared to most European makers. I think the famous Steinway growling bass is quite spectacular but would not generally be called "clean" compared to the top European makers.

And they have amazing brand recognition, even among non-musicians. When non-pianists come over and see the Bösendorfer in the living room, they often ask "how do these compare to Steinway" because that's the only high-end brand they know.

BTW: One advantage to having it is there's no shortage of people who want to come over and play it. So there's plenty of reason for people who enjoy having company to have a "Tier 1" piano even if their own playing skills are mediocre.

And what do you tell them????

To the people who read this thread and got the impression that I'm asserting that I buy into the piano elitism: I don't. I like Yamaha myself and my last piano was a tiny Wurlitzer spinet. To me, playing the instrument is much more interesting than obsessing over the choice of brand of instrument. It was just a genuine curiosity because it occurred to me that I've never heard a big fancy German brand in concert (or often in recordings, but that's more difficult to determine).

Most of Friedrich Gulda's recordings are on Bösendorfer, as are Wilhelm Backhaus's complete Beethoven Sonatas and András Schiff's complete Schubert Sonatas and song cycles with Peter Schreier, and Mozart concertos (all on Decca).
Dutch pianist Wibi Soerjadi's recordings are almost all on Bösendorfer too.

As for Blüthner, there's almost all Artur Pizarro's recordings on the Linn label (Chopin, Beethoven, Liszt, Albéniz, Granados) and Naxos (Rodrigo), and Mikhail Pletnev's Beethoven Piano Concertos and Mozart Sonatas (DG), and Petronel Malan's CDs of transcriptions of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and Tchaikovsky.

Jorge Bolet's numerous Liszt recordings for Decca are mostly on C. Bechstein, as are some of Aldo Ciccolini's more recent recordings (Mozart sonatas). Eugéne Mursky recorded Chopin polonaises on Sauter.

You will note that none of these are American recordings......

told ya.... Aka Columbia/CBS/Sony

"[quote=pianistical]As a pre ww2 bluthner fan I agree with Sophial. Steinway has great projection and maintains its shimmering overtones over long distance. Some tier 1 European pianos loose their fine overtones over distance and tend to sound too one dimensional."

I think that's just ridiculous, and not true.

I think hoola is confusing a lack of acoustical definition in the bass of that piano with some obscurity caused by a very broad use of the pedal.

one interesting aspect I found out is that airy and mellow tone are very difficult to record and to replay.
the rich and intensive tone from Steinway and Bechstein are very recording friendly - the recording still sound different from the real thing but very pleasing.
i have not heard a decent recording with august forster yet - the airy piano sound is in my head but the recordings were nothing like it. even from the movie "the pianist"

You want August Foerster? We give you August Foerster.


How about this:



I don't know who this kid is but he is fantastic.

Wow, what an opinionated discussion so far. I'll add mine to the mix:

I tend to lean toward the side that Steinway today maintains its reputation more on marketing efforts then a current, modern attempt at continued development of its brand legacy.
A long time ago, they were the leader of piano engineering and design leaving a trail of patents that contributed to piano building over a century ago.
Where has that drive and determination gone? Rather than acting as a leader in their industry by way of efforts in continuous development, they seem to be resting on the laurels of their past generations of operations.
In most industries, these types of companies eventually wake up one day to realize that they have lost their competitive edge and simply cannot catch up to the competition and/or changes in environment around them. Their last ditch attempt is to insist everything is fine, and they still see themselves in the mirror as the mighty giant they were 3 generations ago.

Where would Steinway be if Samick did not come to the rescue just a few years ago? Much of what made Steinway great a long time ago, as a leader in the industry, is non-existent today and it is ironic that Samick who only 10-15 years ago was seen as entry-level at best, is the company that saved the mighty Steinway.

We all are fully aware of the potential a Steinway can have once it is sold to a concert hall in North America and then proceeds to receive a phenomenal amount of technical work followed by years of regular, sometimes daily, servicing. These particular concert grands in all likelihood would not travel more than 40-50ft from the spot to which they were first delivered. For anyone who has commented or inferred that they question the aging (stability) of a Tier 1 European piano in our North American climate/environment, I cannot say for sure, but I would venture a guess that under these same precise conditions, those European made Tier 1 pianos (whose manufactories have existed 50 or more years) would do just fine.

Although things are changing, it is a simple economic phenomena that shouldn't come as a surprise. A business should have a strong foothold on its domestic market. NY Steinway has enjoyed this in North America, and European piano makers have respectively enjoyed the same in Europe and surrounding regions. Where the scale tips, however, as has been pointed out.... is the fact that there is tremendously little interest by Europe and Europeans towards NY Steinways but there is definitely interest and appreciation by North Americans for various European pianos.
Our North American car makers have broken into the European auto market, I believe Bill Gates has had success with Windows based applications in Europe. So Europeans are interested in what we have to offer, but simply just not with regards to our pianos.
Hmph.....

I usually say something like, "How does a Lamborghini compare to a Ferrari?"

They're both top-end precision instruments, but depending what you prefer, you may lean one way or the other. However, if you've never driven a car to the limit, and if you've never worked on cars a day in your life, chances are there are virtually no differences that you will be able to detect (except the hood ornament).

I am buying one -- a Sauter Delta is being built for me as we speak. I own two Yamaha grands, which have served me well, I must admit. But for me it was always Sauter I wanted to go for once I could afford it. So, this interest and expenditure is painstakingly built up over many years.

Having said that, indeed in the UK these instruments (or at least the grands) cannot, or only very rarely, be found anywhere. I have seen and played Steinways, Bosendorfers and Bluthners, but all these instruments (with the exception of Grotrian-Steinwegs maybe, but it was also many years ago I played one) I always found a little to very disappointing (a Schulze-Pollmann which I found really awful almost put me off the track of going for a higher-grade piano altogether). My mother has two Schimmel grands, but the bigger and newer one is not really to my taste (maybe needs voicing).
Coming back to Sauter:I knew about this brand only because I have seen and played them in my native country over 20 years ago, and recalled them as very fine instruments, in a more affordable bracket than what then counted as "tier 1" (however, at that time still unaffordable for me). But when I mentioned the name Sauter to my colleagues here in England (many of whom are competent players) I drew a total blank. I don't know how many there are in the UK, but I guess only a handful in private ownership. I asked about it when I visited Spaichingen in February, and it seems that the UK is indeed a difficult market. Those who are in the know about Sauter all either come from elsewhere or got their familiarity with the brand from ties with continental Europe.

So, looking at this forum, I think it is mostly the informed and discerning piano-lovers, those with a real passion for the subject (but not necessarily professionals) who have a keen interest in these instruments.

Very true, we have three custom orders for Sauter grands right now. With possible fourth one, a 7' Sauter Omega being close contender for intermediate but highly regarded Concert Hall.

Excellence in every single detail: can it be a secret forever?

Norbert

Is it just me, or did this kid fastforward into an adult halfway through the performance? You really have to pay close attention otherwise time flies when you listen to some beautiful music.

Looks like they have a different soloist for each movement.

And the kid was great; but then I'm biased; I love Beethoven's first piano concerto in C-Major.

Frankini, Professional pianists are usually scared to venture outside the brands that they know. It's as simple as that. When I was studying, there was a culture amongst the staff and students to say that Steinway is the only piano worth performing on, Yamaha is a close second for practising, and everything else is not worth the wood it's made from. Including Bosendorfer, Bluthner, Fazioli, Schimmel, Grotrian, Seiler, Sauter, Kawai etc.

The truth of the matter here is that pianists often don't want to adapt their playing to the instrument that they're playing on, and therefore miss out on a whole host of colour and dynamic range that could be available to them. Finding out what is possible on one instrument allows you to transfer the intent at least, in some ways, to another.

Some of these lesser-known hand built instruments really sing. I've found with some Steinways and Yamahas, a little bit of a problem with getting the instrument to sing, in the two octaves above middle C. These same problems have not been apparent on Bluthners, and in particular, a Grotrian I played once was almost perfect. Yet these instruments are absent from conservatoires and concert venues in the UK. Why that is I have no idea, because they are fine hand built pianos, and they are significantly cheaper than Steinways.

Of course, I have played some absolutely beautiful Steinways too.