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I have had my piano tuned five times now since it was new 14 months ago. I had hoped it would become more stable with the last tuning which was about a week ago. Tonight I was playing it and realized it is pretty out of tune already, especially the unisons in the middle octave. Should I be concerned?

Im far from an expert but is your humidity level controlled? From my research that is one the first things to check and my 1977 Baldwin is able to keep in tune for a long time so i cant complain about my humidifiers
Sorry if its a noob question

Likely suspects are the newness of the piano and the tuner.

How long does the tuner take to tune?

Well, what's your playing style like? It could be the piano, sure, and it could be an inexperienced tuner. But, depending on what your playing habits are, that could be contributory or even the main culprit.

The fact that concert pianos are tuned daily and sometimes between performances the same day leads me to believe that any and all pianos, even the best of the best, can be played hard and knocked out of tune in short order. It is not abnormal, so to speak.

I play my pianos hard and tune them often; and, I don’t worry if a unison is knocked out of sync slightly due to playing some hard-driving boogie-woogie.

Rick

Seconded.
I had my Yamaha C2 tuned for the first time after having it for about 8 1/2 months, but for a new instrument it had kept its tuning pretty well in my opinion; and the tuner said that he noticed that I use an air humidifier. 40% - 60% is recommended.

So: Get air humidifiers, and a hygrometer.

One more question, it's spring in the northern hemisphere, so humidity can shift significantly in just a day. If the weather has been very changeable in your area that would explain the tuning instability.

"I play my pianos hard and tune them often; and, I don’t worry if a unison is knocked out of sync slightly due to playing some hard-driving boogie-woogie. smile"

Blimey, I wouldn`t be smiling` if my ole Joanna went out o` tune so quickly - some pianos only get boogie played on `em . . .imagine a honky tonk being blasted back into tune. Not on, is it?

Seriously, don`t you think this problem should`ve been alleviated years ago? Is the steel in the strings not up to it? It is a metal frame holding everything in synch so to speak . . . or not as it happens. . .Why should humidity alter things?

I just know someone`ll put me right in no uncertain terms . .

Humidity causes the piano's components to expand and contract as moisture is absorbed and released. This changes the string tension, thus, the tuning changes.

Peter

The same thing can happen to one's keyboard! I once heard of a bloke whose keyboard was exposed to too much humidity and his apostrophes (') started mysteriously looking like backticks (`)

Think of it!

Blimey.

My wife's big Sty A never has a unison get "rolly" for many months-as do many of my customers pianos. If the humidity of the environment is steady by having Dampchaser W/humidistat and no kitchen steam or similar humidity peaking events-a seasoned piano tuned by a skilled Tech who spends about three hours tuning/voicing/regulating/cleaning a piano twice a year will not get many if any obviously wowing unisons.

Most tuners want to tune in less than two hours and the results are less stable. Of course the three hour service/tuning will cost aprox $300.

Sounds like you got street tuner... I remember using them because they were cheaper but when I got certified one to do some regulation just 3 months later he told me the piano was so out of tune it sounded like hadn't been tuned in years haha. I knew it was out of tune but I had no idea it was that bad. Major difference when he tuned it correctly. Much more solid colors came from the keys!

I would like to take this up;
"Seriously, don`t you think this problem should`ve been alleviated years ago? Is the steel in the strings not up to it? It is a metal frame holding everything in synch so to speak . . . or not as it happens. . .Why should humidity alter things?"

Leaving the sound board aside for the moment, my naive question is;
Why DO pianos go "out of tune" with humidity changes ?

At least from an overview of the design and construction of a piano the "tuning" is dependent on string tension and the strings are stretched across a metal frame.
Temperature change should affect the tension far more than humidity (METALS).

Unisons ? Those strings are SO CLOSE TOGETHER that whatever environmental changes affect one SHOULD affect the other equally - given equivalent materials, they are even in/on the "same bits of wood".
Why do those go out of tune (relative to each other) with humidity changes ?

OK, bringing the sound board back into the picture.
I can see its resonant frequencies changing with humidity, but strings aren't tuned to the soundboard - Concert A 440 (or some other standard).

Basically I think I'm saying that a piano SHOULD at least stay in tune with itself, the whole thing may go sharp or flat, but why do unisons drift with humidity ?

Just trying to understand this - not "arguing" any points here.
TNX

Would an upright be susceptible to humidity changes?
I don't have one yet but I have 2 acoustic guitars and people are always banging on how humidity can affect the guitars tuning stability.Ywt mine rarely go out of tune,and they're in a centrally heated room! Thing is winters tend to show an increase in humidity here (wet winters) yet I'm warned about a decrease in humidity in winter!

There have been times on the PW forum when I should have just listened rather than talk/write… this may be one of those times, but what the heck, we live and learn.

There is a difference between “tuning stability” and a piano remaining in perfect tune for extended periods of time (which is usually not the case). No piano, regardless of how fine or how skilled the tuner may be, will remain in perfect tune for an extended period of time.

I don’t have the reference in front of me, but I read about an experiment done by a very well known, highly regarded piano manufacturer, in order to test the relative tuning stability of its pianos. If my memory serves me correctly, the piano, placed in a controlled environment, was tuned to perfection and then not played, but left alone just to test the tuning stability at static conditions. Test were done periodically to measure the tuning and it was found that the piano began to drift flat within days of the perfect tuning, without any playing or pounding at all. Was the piano new? Yes, most likely.

To me, tuning stability has to do the just how far out the piano will drift over time, even in a controlled environment. Things can be done, like adding a DC, or what every, but pianos drift out of tune naturally over time.

Yes, some tuners are better than others, and a good tuning will last longer, but no piano will remain in tune perpetually.

If this is unacceptable, get a digital.

Just my .02.

Rick

Well thought out. The answer to your questions lie with the critical points at which the string makes contact with the board.....primarily at the bridge pins. Think about it. The bridge is directly linked to both the soundboard and the string. When the humidity increases, the board swells and the bridge heaves up, ever so slightly, thereby increasing the tension on the string and sending it sharp. The reverse happens when the board releases moisture into drier air. At the other end, the tuning pin is in direct contact with both the pinblock and the string. When the humidity increases, the hole surrounding the pin swells and tightens, and could, conceivably, be affecting, ever so slightly, the angle and torque of the pin relative to the string. Since the wood's grain pattern and density from one area to the next at both these locations is variable, to some degree, you would then inherently have variability built into the system from string to string, no matter how close they are to each other. Add to this the constant upward pounding of the string, on a grand, from the hammer, and the resultant forces trying to move the string away from the bridge surface, and it's a wonder that most pianos stay in tune as long as they do. Finally, I have to commit what, no doubt, will be deemed heresy on this forum by seriously questioning the frequently proposed notion that a "great tuner" can somehow overcome these variables and create a "stable" tuning. First of all, what does that mean....."stable"? Some might agree that the "Concert" technicians are working at a higher level of competency than the "average" street technician. OK, if that is the case, why would they need to "retune" a piano in mid concert? If their tuning abilities were so superior, why did that tuning not even hold stable for even a couple of hours? They'll tell you that it's because they are being held to a much higher standard and the professionals put the piano through a much greater level of stress. So, in essence, their technique, no matter how good, CANNOT overcome the forces I've outlined above. As much as I know that my comments will generate a lot of heated rhetoric on this forum, I think the most important point is that the tuning be judged more on the technician's ability to bring each string up to it's intended frequency relative to the strings around it, then, make a second pass to correct any "drifts" that may have occurred as you change the string tension levels at the far ends.

Wood expands/contracts with the moisture
level in the air - this is the main issue.

R B,

I understand what you are you are saying about the frame and strings, but the soundboard always remains a major factor when assessing tuning stability. The strings don't just 'float' above the sound board (grand), transmitting the vibration to the soundboard through the air. They are directly coupled to the SB by means of the bridge. The atmospheric fluctuations of the RH greatly affect the wood of the SB, and that directly affects the tension of the strings. Thus, the piano goes out of tune due to the expansion/contraction of the wood. If the surrounding environment is kept at an narrow RH range, there is less direct on the SB. Hope this helps.

Larry, the generalization about 'dry winters' is a reference to a four season climate, rather than to the specifics of your area. Your friends in Austria might have a very different experience. Being a player of acoustic guitar, don't you find that you are checking tuning, and making small (fine) adjustments, on a daily basis? It would be unusual to not. Like with a violin or other similar string instrument, it is a constant process, rather than trying to attain long term tuning stability.

Lots of us engaged in Simultaneous Typing Syndrome!