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Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #2046893
03/12/13 09:07 AM
03/12/13 09:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
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France
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by Olek
I can in 15 minutes so I am faster ! But anyone that cannot bore a set in less than 20 minutes should think seriously about finding a new job :l)


Must be a really long drill bit.... Do you stack them thirty high and drill all at once? wink


How did you discover that ? I also pre needle at the same time so in 25 minutes I have my set ready (then a little Chinese guy come by night and glue the hammers)



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Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2047137
03/12/13 04:48 PM
03/12/13 04:48 PM
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UK
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I always dry fit the hammers to the shanks first, and then travel them before glueing. It's so much easier to see than travelling the shanks. You can even use Fred Sturm's method of turning the action upside down which is more accurate.
I never have to do any casting at all.
I also countersink the holes too so the glue is pulled in, rather than being scraped off by a sharp edge.

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2047180
03/12/13 05:27 PM
03/12/13 05:27 PM
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AH musicbased the helicoidal conical reamer is adjusting that for you, but only if you use Renner shanks (they are also conical)

Then you have that little motion availeable. many hammers on best brands will show you a bow on one side, just related to the bow in string's plane, for instance. If hammer size is not following the strings shape, the strike line is not straight or the rake angle have to be tweaked some.
A few mm can be heard when the strike is near a node, less if you are at some distance of it.
On some of the best brands, the tweaks in hammer line looks unreal, but when you raise the hammers to the strings you discover they all have the same orientation to the string plane (from front to bridge) and the tweaks take another meaning.

Boring with the tweaks in mind is all but easy so must of the job is left to the reaming method and the guide samples.

But I noticed that the angle the hammer makes against the strings is changing the percussion energy, on some brands the tweaks are amazing even on small pianos, then when you raise the original hammers to the strings you discover they have all the same 90°

Traveling shanks is done 2 or 3 times without the heads, when the hole is reamed and dry fit done, it is not easy to see more traveling, as the holes are a tad large, (due to the necessity to have some free play when placing the hammer on the shank) but the hammers will not align really.

Gluing on cylindrical shank with a tighter fit does not allow the tweaks that rake angle may need from one sample to the next (and that allow to keep the same hammer orientation at strike level while you have 1-2-3 mm difference in strings height from one side of the section to the other)

Same old instruction does the trick, center the screws/flange, shanks lining with even spaces, traveled, lined again, then there will be always some travelling left and it will show up during gluing when you compare the move of the glued hammer with the 2 precedent ones.

This is also the only way to deal with the compromising done on smaller pianos with shanks not square to the rail.

I have used jigs for hammer gluing and did not like the result (one of the bad point was that the back of the hammers where lining and not the front, plus some wedging effect sometime and the hammer move in the end. A lip under the tails could be interesting but the free hand method allows more variations.

also gluing one hammer between 2 old ones never satisfied me in the end.

But I like hammer gluing "dance" it is really something physical in space,

the samples are tested 3-4 times for lining, and hammer impact direction (and tone of course for the treble, but we are disadvantaged in comparison to the factory tech that knows very well the model he works, its capacities, on and the tone he is after)

About that hammer "verticality" (which is more the 90° relation to the string slant in my opinion, even if it is certainly modified a lot depending of the force of the stroke) smaller pianos are more exigent in that aspect, also the strike ratio is moving as to allow more partials where the piano lacks of, and more fullness (nearer a full node point) where the strings lenght are more reduced.

We always have benefit from new hammers and shanks, (assuming we dont need to add 15 gm of lead on each key) but ther are a few points that help to optimize the result, and I believe that on the original sketch only the strike is a line (it is also easy to make mistakes on non voiced hammers so the guide hammers in the treble are better pre voiced at last a little, it avoid confusions.

Last edited by Olek; 03/12/13 05:28 PM.

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Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2047289
03/12/13 08:55 PM
03/12/13 08:55 PM
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Incidentally, since I had the ShopSmith, it was obvious how to make the boring jig. Although I think a ShopSmith is a worthwhile acquisition for anyone in this business, it should be clear that with considerably more work, it would be possible to make a horizontal boring machine for hammers from a drill press. You would need to mount the head appropriately, and modify the table and how it is mounted, but it would not be terribly difficult.


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Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2055746
03/28/13 02:11 PM
03/28/13 02:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 607
Los Angeles
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whats a rough estimate just to change out hammers with quality ones on a grand? assuming the shanks,knuckles, etc are good..

also, what hammer recommendations for a Baldwin L? ive done a bit of research, but theres 3 or 4 good ones out there.. so unsure on what to go with.. ie: renner, abel, ronsen, Isaac, etc..

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Gatsbee13] #2055810
03/28/13 04:57 PM
03/28/13 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatsbee13
whats a rough estimate just to change out hammers with quality ones on a grand? assuming the shanks,knuckles, etc are good..


Unfortunately, hammer replacement isn't just "hammer replacement". You will also have to regulate the action, which may or may not involve reconditioning the action parts first. And, depending on the piano (and hammer choice), you may have to re-balance the keyboard. FWIW, I'm doing a hammer replacement job on a 1986 Baldwin SF-10 this summer and it is definitely getting new knuckles.

Originally Posted by Gatsbee13
also, what hammer recommendations for a Baldwin L? ive done a bit of research, but theres 3 or 4 good ones out there.. so unsure on what to go with.. ie: renner, abel, ronsen, Isaac, etc..


It depends on the piano, your tastes, and the acoustical environment. A good technician will sit with the customer and test samples in the piano. Personally, I think Renner and Abel take too much work to sound decent. 16 lb Ronsen "Weickert" would probably be my default choice.

Figure $910 (retail) for ready to install hammers. The total job, depending on the piano, would probably be in the $3,000 range (this assumes cost of materials and action reconditioning/regulating).

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2055822
03/28/13 05:34 PM
03/28/13 05:34 PM
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Los Angeles
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that sounds about right..just got a quote from a local rebuilder. 3k for new shanks, knuckles, and hammers, and servicing..i was hoping to get away with just hammer replacement as my tech told me that the action is good, except whoever serviced the hammers in the past didn't do a good job (he said the person got to the "heart" of the hammer).. anyways, my tech is going to try to do some filing and regulation.. its just that the piano sounded a little dull and muddy..


I hope hes able to bring the hammers back to life..

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Gatsbee13] #2055838
03/28/13 06:00 PM
03/28/13 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatsbee13
that sounds about right..just got a quote from a local rebuilder. 3k for new shanks, knuckles, and hammers, and servicing..i was hoping to get away with just hammer replacement as my tech told me that the action is good, except whoever serviced the hammers in the past didn't do a good job (he said the person got to the "heart" of the hammer).. anyways, my tech is going to try to do some filing and regulation.. its just that the piano sounded a little dull and muddy..


I hope hes able to bring the hammers back to life..


How old is your piano?

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2055847
03/28/13 06:10 PM
03/28/13 06:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 607
Los Angeles
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30 years old.. not abused, barely played on..

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Gatsbee13] #2055967
03/28/13 11:31 PM
03/28/13 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatsbee13
30 years old.. not abused, barely played on..


I would say that you probably won't benefit much from replacing the shanks unless you get WNG parts. If I were building an estimate for this piano, I would include:

1. Knuckle replacement
2. Check shank/flange centers and re-pin as needed
3. Steam/iron wippen heel felt and let-off button felt
4. friction treatment of key pins, capstans, key bed, and knuckles, etc.
5. New Ronsen hammers
6. New back checks (possibly)
7. New front and balance rail punchings
8. New key bushings
9. Complete regulation (including dampers)
10. Touch-weight analysis and correction
11. String leveling

And I would charge >$3,000.

Re: Replacing hammers in a grand [Re: Ryan Hassell] #2056028
03/29/13 02:22 AM
03/29/13 02:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Your quote is for hammer , shanks and correctly done, it takes yet enough time assuming the action is weighted. And regulation is precise .

Indeed you can do for less but when sometime later all hammers have to be centered correctly under the strings because they begin to zingle on the edge of some heads, you decide is normal to charge and spend the necessary time. I find it unfair to say you can do more for a lesser price. Action work begins to be fast only with much experience.
Installing parts can be done fast but having an identical output than the one of tge factory (or better) will take more time than you believe.


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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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