Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Re-stringing, when should it be done?

I've enjoyed reading these responses. Some nice points about what difference restringing might or might not make, and how much a piano's deterioration is due to strings or to other things, especially hammers.

I have wondered sometimes if people think of piano strings as like guitar strings. A guitar will have many sets of strings in its lifetime, not necessarily because they break, but because they do "wear out" due to the degree of deflection, the relative thinness, the acids in skin etc. I believe that there may be a false perception at large that restringing is some kind of cure-all for an old piano.

This may have been fostered by unscrupulous "rebuilders" willing to sell a restringing when it's not really neccessary. (Of course I am not talking here of reputable rebuilders who do everything in properly restoring, even improving the original design, of a piano).

I have stressed to customers that restringing on its own is unlikely to make much difference, especially if there is little or no soundbaord crown left, and/or if the hammers are not replaced.

It's funny that (at least in the UK) people ask about restringing, but they don't ask about new hammers. Or other action restoration. I have tried to address some of these issues on the Strings page of my website http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/piano-strings.php

It would not be a mistake. I think your comment is based just on seeing a particular piano post-Wapin. You need to have seen it pre-Wapin to offer any valid perspective.

In my experience of observing Wapin by others and the installations I have done, there is ALWAYS a noticeable improvement.

I have done work in various sequences such as restring first, hammers first, with/without Wapin. Wapin and then hammers and would comment that in many cases the tonal improvement from Wapin is greater than the tonal improvement from just restringing.

I don't think this is able to be an accurate statement -- certainly not one that a single person has observed. It may well be that a piano with old wire sounds very good. But whether it sounds as it was when new simply is not within the capability of anyone who didn't hear the piano new to make. Even then, the passage of time would likely dull one's memory of the original sound.

In any event, having done enough "modular" rebuilding to assess the impact of different procedures, I would say that yes, there is an observable improvement in tone from new wire. Not as much as new hammers, to be sure.

I have had the interesting phenomenon of letting the tension down, moving the strings slightly from one pin to the next and re-tensioning. I got a tonal improvement similar to what I observe from new wire. Apparently, getting wire that has been "worked" less at the bearing points gives some of the increased clarity/sparkle of new strings.

I have also experimented with frozen wire, (liquid nitrogen) but not enough comparison to say what all it does other than a strong impression that it stabilized more quickly.

Yet generally, people will ask about restringing, and not about new hammers.

Could be that way because for many popular stringed instruments (guitar, violin, etc.) restringing has a very large impact on tone, so that is what people think about.

Yes, that is what I suggested in Post #2055346, above.

I was thinking the same thing, Keith. I don't know what pianos Beethoven986 has heard, and have no reason to doubt his experience. But I do know that a significant percentage of Wapin installations have been done on pianos which didn't sound so very good to start with. Often, it is a last ditch effort to get any kind of tone at all out of an instrument. I know I've done it. Having done many Wapin installations, there has always been a before/after difference. At this point in my career, I've used it enough that I get relatively consistent, predictable results. I hear the difference immediately.

Grandpianoman has become accustomed to hearing the sound of Wapin on his Mason and Hamlin BB. He might just be missing that sound on his other piano, despite the fact that it has new hammers and good sustain. To me, there is a "Wapin sound". Now, the hammers need to be kept voiced. It can get too bright and zingy with hard hammers. But then, I think that hammers should be kept voiced on all pianos. The Issac's hammers do seem to work very well with Wapin.

Hi Roy,

Yes, that is def part of the reason...I'm spoiled by a beautiful sounding 7ft M&H 'Wapinized' Grand.

I just found out that these treble strings were new around 2002-3~! Given that fact, I think I am not used to hearing a 4ft8 grand, short piano, short strings and all that goes with those issues. Perhaps a Wapin is in order in the future.....That being said, I think I have found the ideal tuning/stretch for it, ET that is.

The hammers are Ari's Cadenza "S" hammers..they work really well..no voicing other than Ari's pre-voicing after he made them.

Let me know what you all think of this tuning/stretch.

"It Had To Be You-- Fox Trot from 1924. https://www.box.com/s/vli1tytq10jv0310ax2y

The tuning sounds good, GP. I've listened to it a few times. As far as whether it is ideal? I can't say.

If the plain wire strings are only about 10 years old, they shouldn't need replaced. I doubt that you would get much improvement there.

I haven't heard of Ari's Cadenza S hammers. What are they, a light version for small pianos?

Hi Roy,

Appreciate the feedback. After trying several stretches/tuning styles, it's clear to me that this short piano presents a challenge in finding the ideal tuning. Will continue to experiment.

Yes, as soon as I found out that the solid wire was only 10 or so years old, no need to replace them.

I believe they are his normal hammers, although, these are his 165 hammers.

Same tuning...recorded a few days later....a short classical piece. Playing a large classical piece on a short piano...it's not my favorite thing to do. This one is not too bad, but some of the classical rolls sound better on a larger piano. You can hear more of how the tuning works with this piece.


--HUNGARIAN DANCE-- No. 8 in A minor, Played by Harold Bauer
https://www.box.com/s/ucsjktz6o624ehhjontq

The 17ths at 0.22 are indicative of far too much bass stretch on any size piano in any temperament. It is not evident in most of the rest of the take because the bass notes are ahead of the beat ,short, and never sound with the rest of the chord.

If this occurred in a slower piece it would be enough to cause an audience to look at each other as though convinced that something was wrong with the piano

I like the sound. The low "growl" is effective in this context. Much better than a biliously sharp bass.

Thanks rxd and Chris for your feedback.

Interesting...this tuning/stretch was specifically for small pianos. Here is one I recorded yesterday...now keep in mind, it's been about 5 + days since I tuned it with this stretch....so it's not a fresh tuning...I have also been experimenting with different tunings/stretches over the last month...stability is not there yet. There is a bit more action in the bass notes on this one.

"Mine all Mine" 1920;s Fox Trot https://www.box.com/s/mpq9u6atjpabxq2zxl0z

This is a fascinating point. The interval in the recording in this thread of ' it had to be you' at 0.22 ,while it may give a strange thrill to some, would not have passed the PTG exam when I was an examiner, (40 years ago). I'm not sure the current exam encompasses this interval from what I hear. Will someone enlighten me?

Even our most vocal advocates of UT's, electronic tuning and extreme stretching would not encompass such an interval as being representative of their creed. Am I to regard their silence on this matter a tacit acceptance of such an interval?

it is around 1.40 that the out of line basses and low medium is the most noticed , to me. and later 2:00 (the little descending scale sound false to the context)
The low E is good, but above it does not sound strongly set in the harmony, a little aside, as if some notes in the basses where played on another instrument.

I also hear some strange 4th and 5ths. surprising it can be noticed as much)

Too low basses sound better with minor harmonies than with major ones.

remind me of my long search for optimal stretch in basses .

keep the good work on !

unison help a lot to find that "stretch" , in my opinion.
( by allowing more "answer" from other notes it reinforces the justness sensation to the listener (just a guess but ...)

Sorry, Isaac, I was referring to the recording of ' it had to be you' some posts back. I have altered my post Requesting input accordingly.

My mistake.

Sorry to be confusing. I agree there's a lot going on in the other recordings but the particular instance I refer to would be noticed by even the most unsophisticated listener.

Well yes Sir I agree totally at 0:22 this sound really strange, (that A1)as if the string had a problem.

Not easy to detect as notes are short, you have good ears, may be you are a piano tuner (?) The smartest guys in the world and neighbors places

It makes a difference what you are listening on. Previously I was listening on my tablet, which doesn't have much bass. Now I have listened on my desktop, which has a better set of speakers. Yeah, it does sound off at that spot. That's the trouble with all these recordings. Most of the time I am listening on some sort of mobile device with lousy speakers.

Definitely makes a difference Roy....the iPhone/IPad speakers are woefully inadequate, as are the usual built-in laptop speakers. I always listen through a pair of Koss Porta-Pro headphones....not expensive, and are very good with the Ipad etc, and computers.

This is tuning into a very interesting subject Olek, rxd, I appreciate your comments. You both have excellent 'ears' This was an experiment. I have purposely not said what ETD I used for this. I will reveal that a bit later. If I have time, I am going to re-tune the piano with a different parameter, and will post the results. [i][/i]

While I am aware that this is an experimental tuning, we were asked for opinions on it and as long as nobody minds this stringing thread morphing into a tuning thread, I do have concerns.

I first heard this over-stretched 17th immediately on the tiny speakers of my iPhone. It stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't need to hear it on anything else, a ridiculously inappropriate fast beat rate is just that. Chris is right, it does sound billious although I doubt Isham Jones and Gus Kahn would appreciate their music being thought of as requiring the comedy mistuning that used to be thought to enhance ragtime piano of the generation before.

I feel concerned that professional tuners don't hear it immediately and others actually preferring this sound.

Thank you for publishing this experiment, it exposes quite a lot. That there is an electronic program out there that produces this result I find odd.

I have constructed comedy tunings for recordings and shows for pianists that specialise in music that the general public enjoys for its old timely feel, I never found it necessary to mistune this far.

I know that this is a stack up of tolerances created by a combination of UT, over-stretching and the 'lost-sight-of-the-end-result-ness' of purely theoretical electronic tuning programs. I wonder what happens if that program was continued downwards in the same progression. It would be interesting for you to record a series of descending 17ths in this tuning from the middle of the piano for us.

It only takes one interval like this for the whole piano to be dismissed as out of tune. Any tuner who wants to minimise call backs would be wise to note this. It would be inexcusable in anything but an intentionally experimental tuning as this is.