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Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I add difficult in memorizing Bach piece! I don't know why but Bach pieces does not seem to stick to my brain compared with other composers such as Beethoven. Is it just me? Is it because of the particular piece I'm doing. I just wonder.


There's a lot of variety and almost no repetition in many Bach pieces. Taking a class in counterpoint will help to understand what's going on. Some folks need to be able to memorize concrete terms to keep their place.

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Originally Posted by stores
I've performed all 48 (two recitals) and they're all difficult.


Stores - I'm impressed - REALLY IMPRESSED !!!!!! That's quite an accomplishment !! thumb


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Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I add difficult in memorizing Bach piece! I don't know why but Bach pieces does not seem to stick to my brain compared with other composers such as Beethoven. Is it just me? Is it because of the particular piece I'm doing. I just wonder.
I've mentioned in some previous threads going to a recital where many students from Mannes(one of the top conservatoies in the U.S. from what I've heard)each performed one or two of the Preludes and Fugues. There were an incredible number of memory problems despite the level of the students and the limited repertoire being performed by each.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I add difficult in memorizing Bach piece! I don't know why but Bach pieces does not seem to stick to my brain compared with other composers such as Beethoven. Is it just me? Is it because of the particular piece I'm doing. I just wonder.
I've mentioned in some previous threads going to a recital where many students from Mannes(one of the top conservatoies in the U.S. from what I've heard)each performed one or two of the Preludes and Fugues. There were an incredible number of memory problems despite the level of the students and the limited repertoire being performed by each.


It's kind of a litmus test, isn't it? It took me a very large amount of work to play WTC II G minor for a competition. The memorization was there, but it's still always nerve-wracking.

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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I add difficult in memorizing Bach piece! I don't know why but Bach pieces does not seem to stick to my brain compared with other composers such as Beethoven. Is it just me? Is it because of the particular piece I'm doing. I just wonder.
I've mentioned in some previous threads going to a recital where many students from Mannes(one of the top conservatoies in the U.S. from what I've heard)each performed one or two of the Preludes and Fugues. There were an incredible number of memory problems despite the level of the students and the limited repertoire being performed by each.


It's kind of a litmus test, isn't it? It took me a very large amount of work to play WTC II G minor for a competition. The memorization was there, but it's still always nerve-wracking.


I agree. It seems that even hitting one wrong note throws me off in performance situation. I have to perform WTC II f minor on stage at a performance center in May. I can play it by memory at home but I don't think it's enough for Bach. Need to really dissect this I think. Studying counter points makes sense. I am contemplating adding terrace dynamic to help my memory for the fugue.

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Technically you can rank them, no problem.

Musically it's impossible... once you get into "How do I make these sound REALLY GOOD?" all bets are off.

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I find Bach difficult to memorize, however once it is securely memorized, I never forget it, probably due to the type of memory work that is required for this music. I can still play the inventions and sinfonias that I memorized as a kid, and the prelude and fugue that I'm working on now is the most securely memorized piece in my program. It just took a long time to get there smile.

As for rating the difficulty .. well, we've had this discussion many times on PW. We all have different strengths and weaknesses as pianists and musicians and will find different things easy or difficult. And I agree with other posters -- they are ALL difficult! But aren't they just amazing to play once you've put the work in?

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Does anyone know of a ranking that treats the preludes and fugues separately rather than together (even though they are separate pieces of music)? Some keys may have a difficult prelude and a (relatively) easy fugue, or vice versa.

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Originally Posted by BWV 846
Does anyone know of a ranking that treats the preludes and fugues separately rather than together (even though they are separate pieces of music)? Some keys may have a difficult prelude and a (relatively) easy fugue, or vice versa.


Henle Verlag ranks them on a scale from 1-9.

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+I+BWV+846-869_9014

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+II+BWV+870-893_9016

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jeffreyjones, that's very helpful. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by BWV 846
Does anyone know of a ranking that treats the preludes and fugues separately rather than together (even though they are separate pieces of music)? Some keys may have a difficult prelude and a (relatively) easy fugue, or vice versa.


Henle Verlag ranks them on a scale from 1-9.

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+I+BWV+846-869_9014

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+II+BWV+870-893_9016


But none of the WTC I or II rank higher than a 7 - with the vast majority of them in the 5-6 range (medium). I find the Henle ranking system for works of the great composers to be helpful (thanks Jeffrey) - but they have an interesting concept of what qualifies for "medium" difficulty. smile


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One of the few that I have tackled is Prelude 6 in D minor (BkI)
... some joker has written off this 26 measure Allegro moderato scramble as “easy”!! Yikes!! ... hold on to your hat.

Glad to discover later from a different author
that G. Henle Verlag grades the piece as “moderately difficult” ... feel much better now.

Carey #2056284 03/29/13 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by BWV 846
Does anyone know of a ranking that treats the preludes and fugues separately rather than together (even though they are separate pieces of music)? Some keys may have a difficult prelude and a (relatively) easy fugue, or vice versa.


Henle Verlag ranks them on a scale from 1-9.

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+I+BWV+846-869_9014

http://www.henle.de/en/detail/index.html?Title=The+Well-Tempered+Clavier+Part+II+BWV+870-893_9016


But none of the WTC I or II rank higher than a 7 - with the vast majority of them in the 5-6 range (medium). I find the Henle ranking system for works of the great composers to be helpful (thanks Jeffrey) - but they have an interesting concept of what qualifies for "medium" difficulty. smile


Their idea of "difficult" is the kind of piece you can only play if you have a virtuoso technique. Most of the WTK, while undeniably tricky, can be played well by a good amateur.

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Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I add difficult in memorizing Bach piece! I don't know why but Bach pieces does not seem to stick to my brain compared with other composers such as Beethoven. Is it just me? Is it because of the particular piece I'm doing. I just wonder.


FarmGirl, it must be an individual thing. I've never had a problem getting my Bach pieces memorized, but I can't for the life of me play Chopin without a score. Weird.


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Gary, I guess so, it must be different to each person. I find Chopin much easier to memorize. I did not mean to say its easy to play but his music seems to get into my system.

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Before biffing off on another fool’s errand, I thought it wise
to consult an oracle for better WTC fare and came across
Prelude 4 in C sharp minor described in my reference book as

“A magnificent composition,
justifying the comparison often made
with the architecture of a Gothic Cathedral.
The prelude a dirge, tragically lyrical. ”

Any comment? As architect I’m pretty up on Gothic Cathedrals,
having visited Rouen, Paris and Munchen amongst other European examples ... but find myself unable to pick up the grand scale of these structures.

So far I’ve got up to measure 12 of the Prelude 4 ...
which shows Bach doing his typical thing ... echoing voices between hands ... however the structure is relatively close-knit with no apparent grandeur.

Sorry to throw in a red herring if so thought by other respected chappies.

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Most difficult for me are:
C#min Prelude, Book II - built on incredibly long musical lines that aren't easily identifiable to the listener's ear, and a mercilessly fragile texture throughout - immense technical control and musicianship essential!

F# maj Fugue Book II - throughout lies uncomfortably for my fingers, and if you lose the thread of it for half an instant, heaven help you!

B maj Fugue, Book II - tricky distributing of voices, lots of advanced fingering-techniques required.

A min Fugue, Book I - plain awkward on the fingers and not gentle on the ear either, with practically every alternate sound a dissonance. And the longest and most complex and cerebral of them all. Most pros that I've come across reckon it's way harder than the rest.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

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I had to laugh. My son on hearing the rankings went "oh great." He was looking for an easier Prelude and Fugue to play next (he has played both WTC I, nos. 15 and 16) recently. He just committed to WTC no. 8.

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