 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
54 members (1200s, 36251, benkeys, 20/20 Vision, anotherscott, bcalvanese, 1957, beeboss, 11 invisible),
1,713
guests, and
335
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,206
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,206 |
Cas...You might google Scott Sonnon. He is who I learn from. Don't be put off that he is a fighter. Has much on fighting. He teaches much on training. He considers Mobility the most important thing anyone can do. It is the only thing he wants people to do everyday. Look at his: Intu flow. A much more involved program of his that focuses on mobility is Primal Stress...it is a bunch. The yoga he teaches is prasara yoga...the highest form of yoga...end up creating your own yoga.
I can understand on meditation. I can only relate to it in jogging. If you choose to start running. Beware and use much mobility and yoga to offset the lower half of the core of you body turning into a rock.
EDIT: Seriously Cas... My suggestion is to do the Intu-Flow (mobility). It will do a ton for you. If that's all you do. You'll be better off than 99% of people. Including the exercise junkies. It will make you feel like moving. Like doing more. It all comes back down to good focus for your playing.
Last edited by rnaple; 03/24/13 11:24 AM.
Ron Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forumpicts/MOYD13/MOYD_3.gif) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Joplinbadgesmall.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780 |
cas, I'm so glad you asked this question. I had tried doing more of the "5x without a mistake as slow as you need to" and frankly, while it is obvious to me it would help immensely in learning things faster and better than I do, my temperment ends up running out of steam in a couple of days, and then I can't practice, or even play, at all. It's not the way I work. So I think Ron's post might be a real help in understanding for me - altho I will have to say that at 67 I have a pretty good idea of how I work, so I am fairly content with my progress. I had just wanted some way to take maybe less than 3 months to get a piece to repertoire - I mean, I play 32-bar or so pop pieces  I just wanted to not bore my senior gig folks to pieces with the same tunes over and over. So I'm looking more for tweaks than major overhauls - but I think body awareness is key for me, and Ron's stuff looks like it may add to that for me. But at the minute I have no answers, other than working with who you are. When I accept that and work the way I am the errors don't bother me - as someone else said, note and no interference. But I think, much as it might work for others, the "no errors and as slow as you need to" is not going to be the way forward for me. I think it's a great idea, and I do not dismiss it for me lightly, but I don't work that way. I think there are some who might use "I don't work that way" as an excuse but I've played a lot over the last 3 or 4 years, and I've come to a stop. I do have some major distractions over the last 3 months, but I'm going to look at the mobility stuff. That might even lead to being able to do the 5x (or 3, or whatever) because it will give me another way into the awareness! So thanks again for asking, and thanks Ron for a possible way forward. This place is great. Cathy
Cathy ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/5540.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/full/7820.png) Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,077
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,077 |
chopin_r_us.... interesting idea but I don't think that's going to happen, thanks.
Damn, and I had the bear skins and clubs all made up!
Laissez tomber les mains
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 23
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 23 |
This thread is full of great advice! I have that same problem - can play all the way through with no terrible errors, but when recording I think my nerves or other distractions interfere. I am glad that casinitaly started this topic, and also that so many have shared their suggestions for overcoming this problem!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,534 |
If you record when you practice all the time, you will forget the red dot and eventually get a good recording. Just edit it out.
I should do it myself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,206
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,206 |
...
So thanks again for asking, and thanks Ron for a possible way forward.
This place is great.
Cathy I appreciate the thanks. I just want to add to not expect quick changes with this mobility. It comes slow. I would suggest to do it for a year. Then decide how much good it is doing you. I think you will be impressed. Just one example of me: I used to have sinus headaches alot. Also when they said to try breathing through your nose when you run. I thought: Surely you jest. Well...I had been doing this mobility for about 6 months. I was doing what he calls: Stevie's. That's moving your head like Stevie Wonder. Something popped in my head. My eyesight was better. My hearing was better. My sense of balance was much stronger. My sinuses had opened up. I no longer have sinus headaches. I also can easily run breathing through my nose. I have no financial interest whatsoever with Scott. I'm just a very happy student.
Ron Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935 |
Why cant I focus? is an interesting question.
When you play a piece, you have to play it in a relaxed fashion. To play a piece in a relaxed fashion, you have to play it 20 beats high than you want to play it.
You have not said what speed you want to play it at or what speed you can play it at in a relaxed fashion.
I have been playing my pieces, 60 of them, that I have learned a year ago and I play them almost everyday. I know them well, I play them well and I am relaxed when I play them because I played at least 30 times a time a month and twice a day, so 120 times a month for the entire year.
Remember, when you play a piece, you must not make ANY mistakes. None. When you play the piano, you have to play without any mistakes. If you have mistakes, then you are playing the piece TOO FAST.
Understand that to learn a piece, you have to crawl through the piece very, very slowly without mistakes and then you have to play the piece without mistakes for many, many, many months everyday without mistakes.
Enjoy the journey.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780 |
...
So thanks again for asking, and thanks Ron for a possible way forward.
This place is great.
Cathy I appreciate the thanks. I just want to add to not expect quick changes with this mobility. It comes slow. I would suggest to do it for a year. I think this is good advice. There are many things that take awhile before your brain/body finally make the "flip" or the wake-up comes, or whatever. Good nutrition, athletics/body awareness, playing the piano  Cathy
Cathy Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 346
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 346 |
I have been playing my pieces, 60 of them, that I have learned a year ago and I play them almost everyday. I know them well, I play them well and I am relaxed when I play them because I played at least 30 times a time a month and twice a day, so 120 times a month for the entire year. 60 pieces is an impressive repertoire. I've no idea where to find the five hours to repeat all that every day, if my repertoire ever extended to 60 songs.
David Lanz - Skyline Firedance Suite Nobuo Uematsu - Final Fantasy 7 Main Theme ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/moyd14/MOYD_34.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479 |
This happens to me all the time. Playin' along just doing fine, realize I'm doing fine, then--shazaam! Hello screw-ups!
I have no idea how to fix this self-awareness jinx. I'm not sure multiple exposures to the offending self-awareness or red dot or what-have-you will suffice to fix it. Telling yourself not to think about how you're doing pretty much guaranties you'll think about it.
I wonder if certain personality types are more prone to this than others. Some people thrive on making their music in public (recording is a proxy for playing in public) and others just--don't.
The best advice so far, imo, is to stop trying after a time or two. Any more than that and you bake in the jinx.
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/15854.png) Yamaha C3X In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368 |
How do you stay focused? Try harder. Much harder. Not just talk about doing it or saying you will to others but actually do it.
Talk is cheap. Action is what you need. Try harder. Much harder.
Here is how to do it.
Make a game out of it. A game that has consequences. Take a piece that you can play pretty well and apply the game to it. The game is to simply play your piece slowly and calmly. You can even play it slower than normal if you need to in sections....BUT, Whenever you make a mistake it will cost you $5 bucks. Per mistake!
Since you are able to play the piece in its entirety [because you have before], then you know up front that you are able to do it because you factually have. So the only problem really is to play the piece without making mistakes. Since the game allows you to take as much time as you want before you play the notes, there really is no reason to ever make a mistake because there is no time penalty. You only get penalized when you actually make the mistake..[and you have the ability to avoid that].
Doing this may sound a bit oversimplified but playing this game [especially with preventable but actual $5 penalties per mistake] will absolutely help you concentrate or at least think/approach this problem in a different way. You will think and stay focused before you hit the notes because wrong ones will cost you.
I've had this EXACT same situation many times and had come to the conclusion that I just needed to try harder. It took playing the $5 per mistake consequence game to do it but it worked. When I really tried, I played much better with fewer mistakes.
What really needed to happen and what actually did happen is that I just needed to approach what I was doing in a different way. A way that was new and fresh as opposed to old, repetitive and tired. My subconscious mind was probably getting bored and needed a new approach to become stimulated and engaged again.
Playing the piece under the rules of the $5 per mistake worked very well for me. It was a fun game to play as well as opposed to just repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Having real consequences worked. Probably because I am so cheap, but hey, it worked.
Side note: Taking the nutritional supplement Astraxanthin seems to be the hottest thing right now. Do some research on it as it appears to have a multitude of real benefits.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935 |
Allard,
Please understand I am a beginner so each piece is only 4 measures long, the pieces I learned in piano book 1 - Every piece I have learned - learning to play the piano I review everyday - it only takes 60 minutes. The operative word is 'BEGINNER', BOOK NUMBER 1 of learning to play the piano,
sorry, I mistlead you in my posting. -> yes, 60 pieces is an impressive repertoire. I've no idea where to find the five hours to repeat all that every day, if my repertoire ever extended to 60 songs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,171
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,171 |
I have even missed the very last note because I think I have nailed it! Yeah, and I've played the first note wrong as well!  cas, your predicament is mine as well. Although I haven't recorded as much lately (primarily due to this problem), for what I've been able to record has come down to this one realization: Make a mistake while recording, then you'll be free. You'll know it's not perfect, but after that flub, who cares. Those listing will understand your intent. We're not recording CD quality stuff here. Knowing that you have that one flub will make it a "real" recording. So, go ahead, screw up once while recording. We most likely won't even notice, and your heart will be so relieved after that inevitable flub that you'll get to the real reason we want to listen! 
Last edited by BenPiano; 03/25/13 01:27 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,088
7000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,088 |
Ashway--- Thanks, I don't think I take myself too seriously -I certainly don't think I'm doing anything for posterity! But I do think that it is a bit absurd that I all too often have trouble getting through pieces I know - it isn't just about recording! Ron, I've started looking at what you were talking about for the Mobility - I've just started up an exercise routine so this fits right in! Michael, what you say does fit with part of the problem- that is that it is very hard to realize how slowly we have to go sometimes. However, at a certain point we've got to pick up the speed! Stubbie - I'm learning what my tolerance levels are and working to stop before I get totally cranky (yesterday I missed the boat on that one!) Mr. Super-Hunky (thought of you the other night when we watched "The Incredibles" ) ..... You raise a very good point. Just don't accept errors. I could put the 5 bucks towards my summer holiday, that way even when I lose, I'll still win --- but seriously you are right - I know I have to try harder, but I can't figure out how to do that effectively. I suspect that your suggestion of just going as slow as necessary to not allow any errors (much like Michael99 suggested) is a step that has to be gone through - not just once but many times. And it is, of course, something my teachers have tried to drill into my brain too (maybe they've been too kind about it.) I looked up Astraxanthrin......sounds like quite a wonderful thing. I have no idea how it might be available here - things you might expect to be OTC here aren't. BenPiano - I'd be will to (and have accepted!) a flub in a recording, I don't aspire to perfection, but I do have some boundaries. In fact as I'm playing if I make a mistake I think, ok, ok, just go.... because if I don't make another one that will be ok. What I'd like to be able to do is not think about anything else except the music and that's what I can't seem to do - I can't just shut out everything else. Maybe I'm just not able to do that .....yet. Thanks for all the ideas and the encouragement. It is always of some comfort to hear other struggle with similar issues when one is feeling frustrated! Even more comforting to know that others have gotten over the particular hurdle under discussion!
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/12291.png) 18 ABF Recitals, Order of the Red Dot European Piano Parties - Brussels, Lisbon, Lucern, Milan, Malaga, St. Goar Themed recitals: Grieg and Great American Songbook
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 558
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 558 |
CASINITALY, you are not alone! I have no recommendation how to improve the situation though.
To me it happens frequently that I start to dream, or to wonder how good I am finally once playing a piece. And a measure later I fail. Nowadays I in this situation remember that I usually fail completly because of such distraction/dreaming and really quickly concentrate back on my playing and am able to prevent to run into the next measure failure.
Then I am pride that this time I was aware about the situation and no more failed by the distraction. Great moment!
Just a moment, because two measures later I fail completely by the distraction of having a great moment. Hahahaha, it´s always the same!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479 |
How do you stay focused? Try harder. Much harder. Not just talk about doing it or saying you will to others but actually do it.
Talk is cheap. Action is what you need. Try harder. Much harder.
Here is how to do it.
Make a game out of it. A game that has consequences. Take a piece that you can play pretty well and apply the game to it. The game is to simply play your piece slowly and calmly. You can even play it slower than normal if you need to in sections....BUT, Whenever you make a mistake it will cost you $5 bucks. Per mistake!
Since you are able to play the piece in its entirety [because you have before], then you know up front that you are able to do it because you factually have. So the only problem really is to play the piece without making mistakes. Since the game allows you to take as much time as you want before you play the notes, there really is no reason to ever make a mistake because there is no time penalty. You only get penalized when you actually make the mistake..[and you have the ability to avoid that].
Doing this may sound a bit oversimplified but playing this game [especially with preventable but actual $5 penalties per mistake] will absolutely help you concentrate or at least think/approach this problem in a different way. You will think and stay focused before you hit the notes because wrong ones will cost you.
I've had this EXACT same situation many times and had come to the conclusion that I just needed to try harder. It took playing the $5 per mistake consequence game to do it but it worked. When I really tried, I played much better with fewer mistakes.
What really needed to happen and what actually did happen is that I just needed to approach what I was doing in a different way. A way that was new and fresh as opposed to old, repetitive and tired. My subconscious mind was probably getting bored and needed a new approach to become stimulated and engaged again.
Playing the piece under the rules of the $5 per mistake worked very well for me. It was a fun game to play as well as opposed to just repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Having real consequences worked. Probably because I am so cheap, but hey, it worked.
Side note: Taking the nutritional supplement Astraxanthin seems to be the hottest thing right now. Do some research on it as it appears to have a multitude of real benefits. Mr Super-Hunky, the $5 rule sounds interesting and you've found it to work well for reducing wrong notes. Wrong notes are one way we screw up under red-dot conditions. Another kind of error is inserting pauses and hesitations into the piece one is trying to record, and here the $5 rule wouldn't work so well, it would seem to me, since you're allowed pauses and hesitations. How did you deal with that kind of error?
Yamaha C3X In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048 |
I have given this a little thought, Cheryl, as I didn't want to post just empathy.
I don't think it's an issue of attention span but distraction by fear of failure when all is going so well.
Many of us practise the beginning of our pieces more than the end and this doesn't help in our confidence as we approach the less practised part of the piece.
The way I deal with this is to repeat my pieces in small sections up to seven times while learning them and as few as two or three times when they're more practised. If I make a mistake I finish with three correct plays.
The sections at the start of the piece are thus played two or three times a day (with an occasional three more) and the later sections up to seven times each.
Only when I have all the sections done do I put them together at weekends, continuing with the sections in isolation during the week. When the weekend play throughs become fluent and generally error free I need no longer have a fear of failure beyond the regular red-dot, bad-hair or sausage-fingered day induced errors.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 16 |
Casinitaly - as others have said, the main thing is not to keep going with the same piece once you start getting upset and annoyed. Walk away, play something else, go and get a cup of tea, and come back to that piece later. Once you start getting irritated things go downhill fast, and can damage your relationship with your music.
Others have also mentioned meditation and yoga - these are the things that help me to focus, in music and in life. One thing these disciplines teach is to be in the moment. This applies very well to playing - have you noticed that the second you think "this is going really well, I've got it!" is the moment it all goes wrong? Try not to dwell on what's gone before, whether its been good or bad - just moment after moment, note after note. This keeps your focus in the present, not wandering back to that awesome trill you just did or anticipating the scary chords on the next page.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368 |
Stubbie, look at it like this. I used to stand up quickly after sitting or doing things on the ground. One time I stood up quickly after sitting on the ground and just happened to be underneath a window mounted air conditioner. Because I didn't think first, in the process of standing up I hit the bottom of the air conditioner with my head [while standing up] and knocked myself out. It gets worse. Somehow I've managed to do this same movement with similar consequences several times just because I didn't take that 1/10000 micro second and think first.
One day I finally made the 'connection' [after whacking myself unconscious a few times] and now whenever I stand up from being on the ground, I do it slowly and check what is above me every time. Yes it took a while to overcome this ridiculous problem but I tried much harder than ever before to look up before standing and over time I finally beat it. 100% due to my added efforts.
Now to answer your specific question, I have no problem with hesitations or dramatic pauses because I am not reading a set of instructions to produce the music. My music comes from me and as a result I can clearly 'hear' where these pauses/hesitations should be and how long. Fortunately, I don't have a problem with the 'non'-playing of note stuff. My biggest problem is still working on control as I must literally force myself to play delicately. This is frustrating to me as I DO hear the soft/gentle melodies in my head but trying to perform them with Rockem Sockem Robot hands is very challenging.
I won't let that deter me however as slackers concentrate on what they can't do and quitting is not an accomplishment but rather the failure of accomplishing a task. [unless quitting something IS your goal!]
Just watch me try even harder. Not to ultimately fail, but instead to one day be able to play the most gorgeous flowing melodies you have ever heard. What will do it is not the notes that are being played, but rather how they are being played. With Rockem Sockem Robot hands!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16,105
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16,105 |
Mr Super-Hunky, the $5 rule sounds interesting and you've found it to work well for reducing wrong notes. That is exactly what James Brown used to do with his band members; except the fine was a lot more than $5... wrong notes during a performance could net a penalty of $50 or more. Of course, he would sometimes forgive the fine if he was in a good mood... (I feel good!!!..... Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,385
Posts3,349,194
Members111,631
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/9medals.jpg)
<- 10+ ABF recitals
