 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
70 members (AndyOnThePiano2, APianistHasNoName, AlkansBookcase, Charles Cohen, BillS728, Colin Miles, 36251, 12 invisible),
2,158
guests, and
339
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431 |
I broke my String Lifting Tool half way through the treble section and then again on the second unison of bass strings. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.woodfab.com/146.jpg) Now I need a new tool Whitch one should I BUY?
Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
I keep several, I like to have a collection of all possible coil lifters.
I like the one in your photo - the long neck makes it useful where the one with the short neck has a problem.
I also like the Scirotino (spelling is probably wrong) coil lifter - it has a sliding counterweight that sets coils very nicely.
Never broke one.
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
My 36 year-old Tuner's Supply lifter finally began to bend out of shape last year, so I bought one of the plastisol-coated ones from Schaff. It's bulky and doesn't fit easily under coils or between pins. IOW, I wouldn't recommend it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667 |
Dan,
Was the tool that broke a Schaff tool? Which number?
Jim,
I haven't seen any mention of plastisol-coated string lifters in Schaff's catalog. Would you happen to have a part number for the one that you bought?
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431 |
It's a STRING LIFTER AND SPACER 134
I guess I'm just pulling to hard.
In my opinion I would say it's much to brittle.
Last edited by woodfab; 03/20/13 09:16 AM.
Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845 |
Greetings,
It seems that there must be a lot of force being used in the stringing to break steel tools. I have evolved my stringing over the years to avoid, as much as possible, having to use force. I have it pretty well isolated to the hammers, with a bit of effort when it comes to coiling wire, and on a small, intense, scale, really concentrated force when moving beckets in or out with heavy wire.
If the tang doesn't protrude, the coil can be lifted higher than level on the pin and fixed there with the initial tensioning of the wire. I try to coil and tension so that when I first tighten the string, the coils are left tilted above the hole opposite the becket's entry. After the first two chippings or so, when I know the tension isn't ever again going to drop so flat as to loosen them, I tap the coils level. This will simultaneously tighten the coils, even out the top strings various angles to bearings, (all the pins are evenly driven by now, eh?), level the coils, and allow the tension of the speaking length to move up the string, taking some slack out of the coil, itself. This is a boost to stability, since the coil contains approx. 150 cents worth of slack after the first chipping, and tightening the coil pays off in a lot faster stability. I use small, custom ground, Vise-Grips to give the coils a twist after the second chipping. It is not uncommon for a note to drop 100 cents, even after being at pitch for a day or two. Moving the coils to level, under full tension, helps reduce this.
This way, I never have to force the lifter, instead, just use it to start the coil off high. Takes little force to hold it up while the pin turns it tight. The hammer does the forceful work, and they don't ever break!
Regards
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
Greetings,
It seems that there must be a lot of force being used in the stringing to break steel tools. I have evolved my stringing over the years to avoid, as much as possible, having to use force. I have it pretty well isolated to the hammers, with a bit of effort when it comes to coiling wire, and on a small, intense, scale, really concentrated force when moving beckets in or out with heavy wire.
If the tang doesn't protrude, the coil can be lifted higher than level on the pin and fixed there with the initial tensioning of the wire. I try to coil and tension so that when I first tighten the string, the coils are left tilted above the hole opposite the becket's entry. After the first two chippings or so, when I know the tension isn't ever again going to drop so flat as to loosen them, I tap the coils level. This will simultaneously tighten the coils, even out the top strings various angles to bearings, (all the pins are evenly driven by now, eh?), level the coils, and allow the tension of the speaking length to move up the string, taking some slack out of the coil, itself. This is a boost to stability, since the coil contains approx. 150 cents worth of slack after the first chipping, and tightening the coil pays off in a lot faster stability. I use small, custom ground, Vise-Grips to give the coils a twist after the second chipping. It is not uncommon for a note to drop 100 cents, even after being at pitch for a day or two. Moving the coils to level, under full tension, helps reduce this.
This way, I never have to force the lifter, instead, just use it to start the coil off high. Takes little force to hold it up while the pin turns it tight. The hammer does the forceful work, and they don't ever break!
Regards
I take a similar approach. Lift coil "too high" on initial stringing. Tap down and compact later.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
I broke my String Lifting Tool half way through the treble section and then again on the second unison of bass strings. Now I need a new tool Whitch one should I BUY? Best string lifter you can get is to make your own out of a single-string-unison bass string. You don't need one that looks like the photo.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667 |
Keith,
I'm always very interested in making my own tools, but I'm battling to wrap my mind around the shape that this thing would take. Do you perhaps have a picture of such a self-made string lifter?
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
WIth a string it is a hook, you need proper technique, the coil lifter is useful, can be made with an old large enough screwdriver.
I like the one sold by Jahnn, with a wooden handle but the light tool pictured there is useful, it tend to wear if misused (not enough force. The comb side is also very useful to make a fiorst spacing
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
Dan,
Was the tool that broke a Schaff tool? Which number?
Jim,
I haven't seen any mention of plastisol-coated string lifters in Schaff's catalog. Would you happen to have a part number for the one that you bought? Yes, it's part # 134. In the catalog, it's shown as their standard, plain metal lifter, but the one I got looks like this: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.operatenor.100megs24.com/IMG_4023.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
the half round seem to be too small for a tuning pin is not it ?
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205 |
Greetings,
It seems that there must be a lot of force being used in the stringing to break steel tools. I have evolved my stringing over the years to avoid, as much as possible, having to use force. I have it pretty well isolated to the hammers, with a bit of effort when it comes to coiling wire, and on a small, intense, scale, really concentrated force when moving beckets in or out with heavy wire.
If the tang doesn't protrude, the coil can be lifted higher than level on the pin and fixed there with the initial tensioning of the wire. I try to coil and tension so that when I first tighten the string, the coils are left tilted above the hole opposite the becket's entry. After the first two chippings or so, when I know the tension isn't ever again going to drop so flat as to loosen them, I tap the coils level. This will simultaneously tighten the coils, even out the top strings various angles to bearings, (all the pins are evenly driven by now, eh?), level the coils, and allow the tension of the speaking length to move up the string, taking some slack out of the coil, itself. This is a boost to stability, since the coil contains approx. 150 cents worth of slack after the first chipping, and tightening the coil pays off in a lot faster stability. I use small, custom ground, Vise-Grips to give the coils a twist after the second chipping. It is not uncommon for a note to drop 100 cents, even after being at pitch for a day or two. Moving the coils to level, under full tension, helps reduce this.
This way, I never have to force the lifter, instead, just use it to start the coil off high. Takes little force to hold it up while the pin turns it tight. The hammer does the forceful work, and they don't ever break!
Regards
Hi Ed, I like and use your method of pulling the coil too high initially and then tapping down to level. I was taught to do it that way a few decades ago by some guy named Fandrich in a little shop in Sacramento. It is my observation that many of the problems that people have getting the coils lifted in the first place has to do with the extreme back angle that most manufacturers seem intent on drilling their pin blocks. It's really hard to keep those coils from crawling down the pin toward the plate on most pianos where the angle of the pin is approaching 7 degrees or so. We rarely drill at more than 3 degrees except for the occasional upright pin block in the bass where the is no pressure bar. BTW, if the tang is allowed to stick out beyond the side of the pin, you are prevented from leveling the coils to the most efficient path around the pin. The coil is best when the top of the wire at 180 degrees from the becket, bisects the hole opposite the becket, as this eliminates any ovoid tracking. The best path around the pin is also the shortest. Imagine a screw thread if you will.
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Good description by Ed, that is how I was shown, with the upper coil covering the hole in the end
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
Greetings,
It seems that there must be a lot of force being used in the stringing to break steel tools. I have evolved my stringing over the years to avoid, as much as possible, having to use force. I have it pretty well isolated to the hammers, with a bit of effort when it comes to coiling wire, and on a small, intense, scale, really concentrated force when moving beckets in or out with heavy wire.
If the tang doesn't protrude, the coil can be lifted higher than level on the pin and fixed there with the initial tensioning of the wire. I try to coil and tension so that when I first tighten the string, the coils are left tilted above the hole opposite the becket's entry. After the first two chippings or so, when I know the tension isn't ever again going to drop so flat as to loosen them, I tap the coils level. This will simultaneously tighten the coils, even out the top strings various angles to bearings, (all the pins are evenly driven by now, eh?), level the coils, and allow the tension of the speaking length to move up the string, taking some slack out of the coil, itself. This is a boost to stability, since the coil contains approx. 150 cents worth of slack after the first chipping, and tightening the coil pays off in a lot faster stability. I use small, custom ground, Vise-Grips to give the coils a twist after the second chipping. It is not uncommon for a note to drop 100 cents, even after being at pitch for a day or two. Moving the coils to level, under full tension, helps reduce this.
This way, I never have to force the lifter, instead, just use it to start the coil off high. Takes little force to hold it up while the pin turns it tight. The hammer does the forceful work, and they don't ever break!
Regards
Hi Ed, I like and use your method of pulling the coil too high initially and then tapping down to level. I was taught to do it that way a few decades ago by some guy named Fandrich in a little shop in Sacramento. It is my observation that many of the problems that people have getting the coils lifted in the first place has to do with the extreme back angle that most manufacturers seem intent on drilling their pin blocks. It's really hard to keep those coils from crawling down the pin toward the plate on most pianos where the angle of the pin is approaching 7 degrees or so. We rarely drill at more than 3 degrees except for the occasional upright pin block in the bass where the is no pressure bar. BTW, if the tang is allowed to stick out beyond the side of the pin, you are prevented from leveling the coils to the most efficient path around the pin. The coil is best when the top of the wire at 180 degrees from the becket, bisects the hole opposite the becket, as this eliminates any ovoid tracking. The best path around the pin is also the shortest. Imagine a screw thread if you will. This is very interesting. Back in the Dark Ages when I apprenticed (1976 & 77), I had been taught to always have the tang protrude approximately the diameter of the wire from the pin, and to lift the coil against it. For me, that never took a lot of force unless I tried to lift a coil that was tight (which is why my 36 year-old lifter slowly bent out of shape). But, I get Dale's point about shortening the path around the pin, and will give it a try today at the Shout House.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
the half round seem to be too small for a tuning pin is not it ? It is big enough, but the arms are so thick it's sometimes difficult to get it between the pins.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060 |
It can be worthwhile modifying tools with a file or grinder to make them fit better.
Remember to lift, not pry.
Semipro Tech
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389 |
Ah yes the glory of tools made overseas from compressed grass clippings. Someone clearly needs to go over there and say add SALT ! I think if they would ever get that these tools need to be hardened or annealed then they would actually survive useage. I think they make those string lifters down at the "Bendzalot" flatware factory when little Johnny forgets to tack on a spoon they just make it a string lifter.
I experimented with some new piano dollies a couple years ago which looked to me like they were made from old pallets but they were still 200 bucks. Bored holes through knots in wood? Why were there Knots anyway? How can you pre-stress wood with knots in it? So now we just make everything ourselves.
My personal favorite is if it's a flawed casting .. throw some paint over it ! At least we will never have to worry about the Naval ships since they do not xray their welding processes.
J. Christie Nashville Piano Rescue www.NashvillePianoRescue.comEast Nashville Bowling Green, KY Scottsville KY. Chamber of Commerce Member/Sponsor Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians Through restoration/renovation
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 411
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 411 |
I have an old APSCO "heavy duty string lifter" that is made from hexagonal stock, with the ears groung to a point. Its a lot better than the Schaff tool pictured, but I don't know if Schaff kept that tool after they bought APSCO.
EDIT: I see they still have it, Schaff part number 3164
Last edited by Dan Casdorph; 03/21/13 02:10 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431 |
Thanks guys for the helpful hints and advice. I didn't want to wait five or six days for a new one to come so I made a quick one out of a cheap wrench. I heated one end till it was white hot and let air cool. Then cut, ground and bent it into the shape I wanted. I heated it up to red hot and dipped it in water. I think it will hold me over until I buy a new one. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.woodfab.com/lifting.jpg)
Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,387
Posts3,349,212
Members111,632
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
