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We're still here on the ninety-sixth Moment Musical!

I was until you changed you avatar!

Not while you're thinking that Schubert wrote ninety-six of these moments!

Schubert Op. 94 No. 6


OK, I was just looking at the history of this little QA problem, and it wasn't me that started it. Though, I admit I struggled a bit with picking up on your multiple prompts ...

Guess I was too absorbed by the missing flat

cool thread. Might join in this winter break to keep my theory up to par between music theory classes. Looks like you might be a bit over my head, though, discussing and breaking down the various musical forms as well as defining things like the exposition/development/recap - but hey, maybe I'll get a head-start towards next semester!

Welcome, Bob, we'd love to have you join in.

It would be too much to expect any newcomer to cover the whole thread but there's much of use on page 1. When the jargon goes over your head, do stop us and ask questions.

There are added benefits to this. It never hurts to clarify what exactly it is that we're talking about, it is always beneficial to refresh the basics, we are in different countries with similar but different meanings attached to words and we have different academic backgrounds. Many of today's meanings are different to those of past times and we pick up the definition as it applies or applied to the periods we have covered in our personal histories.

You will be in good company then, Bobpickle. Much has been over my head, but I seem to be managing ok with keeping up, and haven't been banished so far. To be honest, I am dragging my feet a bit with this Haydn #, as it is looking a bit scary to me. But, they all have in the beginning and make more sense as we move along.

Look forward to seeing you here.

Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major


Interesting. I don't detect themes in this. Well, I detect a few patterns, which aren't repeated very much identically, but seem to crop up here and there with similarites (e.g. the alternating (sometimes slightly overlapping) of LH and RH figures), and lots of twiddly bits.

I started to look for largescale structure last night by comparing the exposition and the recapitulation and looking for (1) how far the beginnings of the exposition and recapitulation are mostly the same (with a few extra decorations in the recap), then (2) they stop being obviously similar for awhile, but (3) where do they pick up being mostly the same again, expect this time the recap is a fifth away from the exposition. That gave me some major sections, and made me think maybe I would find thematic material per section, or at least a theme 1 in part (1) and a theme 2 in part (3).

Except for a few stretches, I can't yet see a small amount of material being held in common and manipulated to create the full first movement.

I'm going to hold off looking at your measure numbers for a bit, Richard, because I want to explore this more and see what I can come up with on my own. Then I'll look at your measure numbers and see what more I can learn from the structure that you see. I often don't see structure the same way you do, so it will be interesting to find out if (a) I come up with the same measure numbers for dividing thematic material as you do, or (b) I don't come up with them, but can see/hear the thematic material when it's pointed out to me, or (c) I don't come up with them and can't detect what you're noticing at all!

Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Beginning analysis

For those who are new to this, here are some possible entry points. These are just some ideas; you may have other ways you like to approach a piece to understand it musically.

A. Listen to the first movement (that's the whole of the Hamelin video, and the first of the Brendel videos). What do you hear? How would you describe this music? Do you like it? Why (or why not)?

B. Listen again, reading along with the score. Do you notice anything more about the movement?

C. Examine the score. What key is the piece in? What are the major sections of the work (hint: look at the repeat signs)?

D. What patterns, structures, or themes do you detect in the movement?

Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Intermediate analysis

After exploring the piece on your own terms as above, you might want to start exploring it in the following ways:

First, some landmarks to look for in this movement:

In a Classical sonata, the first movement is very often in a form called "sonata-allegro form". What this means is that it has three parts (three parts, squashed into two sets of repeats signs? Yes indeed!):

1. An initial part, which is repeated. In this movement, this part goes all the way up to the first repeat sign. This part normally starts in the key of the piece (called "tonic") and ends up in a key a fifth higher (called "dominant"). This part is called the "exposition".

2. A second part, which varies the material of the first part, and proceeds through several keys (perhaps only fleetingly). This part is called the "development".

3. A third part, which repeats the material of the exposition, with perhaps some variations. This part normally starts in the tonic key, and also ends in the tonic key. In this way it is different from the exposition, which went from tonic to dominant. So the third part has to be at least a little bit different from the exposition, because the part where the exposition change key from tonic to dominant will have to be treated differently to end up in the tonic instead. This third part is called the "recapitulation".

The Development and Recapitulation together are often repeated as a unit: Development Recapitulation Development Recapitulation. You can see this in the Haydn in the second repeat sign.

To find the Recapitulation, look for where in the second repeat sign you start to get material that looks almost identical to the beginning of the Exposition.

E. Look for the Exposition (hint: everything up to the first repeat sign) and the Recapitulation (hint: where the material from the exposition starts back up again in the second repeat sign). The Development will be what's left over sandwiched between the Exposition and Recapitulation.

F. What keys do each of these sections begin in? What keys do they end in? Notice that a key can be specified either by the key signature, or by regular use of accidentals.

Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Advanced analysis
one option among many

The above steps are pretty much how I approach a piece initially, and once I've gotten an overall impression and identified the exposition/development/recapitulation (in a sonata-allegro form movement), and the beginning and ending keys for each of those three sections, this is what I'm starting to do for this piece:

G. Compare the Exposition and Recapitulation. Where are they mostly the same? When do they stop being mostly the same and start to differ (and by how much)? When do they start being mostly the same again? (I call that middle different piece the "bridge" but I understand that this is inaccurate, but I don't have a better name for it. Suggestions?)

H. Go back to the Exposition.
a. What thematic or structural parts can I find in it? (This is what Richard is suggesting I notice.)
b. Are any keys passed through other than the tonic and the dominant?

I. How do the building blocks of the Exposition appear in the Recapitulation? First do it for the obviously related parts, then do it for the middle different section in the Exposition vs. the Recapitulation (the one I erroneously call the "bridge").
a. How are these parts changed in the Recapitulation, if at all?
b. Are any keys passed through other than the tonic?

J. How do the parts of the Exposition become building blocks for the Development? I leave this step for last because I expect the Development to have a more complicated relation to the Exposition.
a. How are they transformed in the Development?
b. What keys are passed through?

Richard has a finely honed eye for detecting building blocks and relations between different passages; I'm still struggling with that apart from really obvious similar passages. I'm also developing at being able to eyeball a bunch of accidentals and determine what key I'm in. I usually have to do a bunch of harmonic analysis as well to get really confident about the key.

I hope this list of kinds of things to look for doesn't seem overwhelming. You don't have to do all of it, or you can approach a piece in a very different way; these are just some of the things I've learned to do that I like doing, and because I like doing them so much, and because I have an analytical organizational mind, I like listing them out and seeing what method I can use. It develops over time, just like piano playing, starting with the simple things to notice, and then adding on more and more things that you can look for.

Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major



This will be a good start for me:

Holly Haydn, this piece really moves along. I've needed to do a few restarts just to follow the score on the correct measures let alone the notes.

Exposition: M1-M53 (to the first repeat)
Development: M54-101
Recapitulation: 102-150

Something is not right with this though, as 53 measures in exposition and only 49 in recap. I would expect perhaps a couple of extra in the recap if an ending tag or similar is added, but not less. I will see if I can figure out what has occurred.

I'll do more thinking/listening on the themes as well. I hear initial theme, as Richard mentions coming in LH at M20, and also coming back an M30. Then something quite new starting at M37.

Just some starter stuff to begin getting my feet wet with this one. Hope, I am somewhat on track though of course.

Greener, I agree with you about the locations of exposition, development and recapitulation. If you compare the exposition and the recapitulation carefully, you will find out what causes the exposition to have more measures.

The Clementi Sonatina #4 is another example where the exposition is longer than the recapitulation: 30 measures vs. 24 measures.

I am finding listening to this piece several times with the score to be very important because the score is busy enough that just looking at it (without listening) I don't see the similarity of patterns, except for very obvious ones; and I don't audiate the whole thing at a high enough complexity to pick up these less obvious similarities either. Also it is helping me to hear sections of "this sounds like a musical idea" "this sounds like another musical idea" "this sounds like something I've heard before." Not that these patterns couldn't be picked up just from reading the score, with or without a high level of audiation; it's just that I'm not picking them up that way.

Wow, wonderful first movement of the Haydn. Very nice wide-awake performance from Brendel too, who I've never especially gotten into before.

I even had a look at the score. Hmm, the first few bars don't look too tricky...

Hot, Jeff, very hot!
___________________

Hi, pianoslacker.

Brendel is deep, very deep.

The difficulties in this movement are the double thirds, the change to sextuplets, so typical of Haydn's work, and one's definition of Allegro.

This piece does not present insurmountable problems.

Hi Richard

To be honest it's only the first three bars that don't look too tricky. After that I'll go back to my Turk, Kohler, Gurlitt and Kabalevsky pieces.

Cheers
Rob

Understood, Rob.

I hope that doesn't mean we're going to be losing you!

You can fruitfully engage in analysis even without learning to play the piece. I hope you'll join in the discussion, pianoslacker.

Thanks - I'll definitely be checking out what you guys are up to, and if I can think of anything to contribute or ask, I will.

However any thoughts I might have are going to be pretty basic. For example, right now I'm thinking most of bar 1 I can understand: he's spinning out a tonic triad. But where's he conjuring the A and D from? Why did it have to be those two notes and not two others?

Be warned!

Interesting question! But slightly wide of the mark.

The first two notes are not as important as you might think! The essential feature here is the first and third beat of each bar, starting with the E in M1, and spinning out the theme E-D-C-F-E-D-? The start E-D-C settles on the tonic note and by starting again on F he's making you expect it to land on tonic again in M4 but it doesn't!

M4 starts with D and the second beat leads A-B- again expecting C but he lands on it off the beat and, delighted with himself, teases you with those last three notes all the way to the end of M6 still not hitting the C on the beat.

He then repeats the whole thing, slightly disguised this time but in in M10 he DOES hit C on the beat and, wild with excitement, dances on the leading note, B, at the start of M11, 12 and 13 and wraps it up in M13, 14 and 15 by repeating the main theme again but this time starting on C and inverting it C-D-E-B-C-D-E.

M15 presages something anew!

How did I miss this? Thank goodness for the link to Brendel!

Haydn is pretty much the father of the symphony and, with Mozart, he crafted the sonata principle and made it what it was and it pervaded everything from sonatas and symphonies to overtures. Until along came that elemental force of nature, Beethoven, who took the idea, stood it on its head and worked it like Michelangelo worked marble carving masterpiece after glorious masterpiece.

But Haydn started it.