|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
40 members (artifice, Emery Wang, Ed Sutton, AlkansBookcase, GlennLake, BillS728, emenelton, Berto, 8ude, 8 invisible),
1,571
guests, and
438
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,964
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,964 |
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those. True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses. Well they won't go away. Of course they won't
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.
Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those. That's fair. But what about the actual presence? A 9' concert Steinway has godly presence. It's insane. I don't see how speakers on a little AvantGrand-type instrument could ever match the raw experience of a 9' resonating beast. With real grand pianos, the entire piano is the speaker. All of it vibrates, not just the soundboard. I just don't see electric pianos ever being able to capture that, and if they ever could, it seems like they'd be too big and too expensive to ever have the luxury of inexpensiveness and portability. It seems like they would just be building an electric 9'. And even then would it match the raw power and organic experience of the real 9' grand's presence? I'm just not convinced. I think the problem is when we try to match an electric instrument to an organic instrument. When the goal is to make the fake one sound like the real one, the fake one with never be as good as the real one because it's always an imitation. This is why the piano did away with the harpsichord. It wasn't just an imitation, it was an improvement. Electric pianos serve a good purpose but I think their place in music needs to be acknowledged. They do what they do well but they won't ever be a 9' Steinway. This is all my opinion! They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,964
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,964 |
And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...
Status and identity, I think. I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something. But, on the other hand, they were always prepared for a party !!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO. Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO. Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can. Really? If you were to be blindfolded and sat down at two pianos, one being the one you felt successfully replicated the organic presence of an acoustic, and the other being a 6' acoustic grand, you would NOT be able to tell which one was which? Haha c'mon man! "I have experienced it replicated" -- no you haven't!
Last edited by JoelW; 03/16/13 12:16 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,712
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,712 |
I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice Agree! But I just want, no NEED a piano in my life, any piano!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,568
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,568 |
Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?
How is it going? Relic or not?
Could you post a list of who said what.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 267
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 267 |
The cost of acoustic piano can well make acoustic piano relics My colleague says she purchased an August Foster piano for her nieces 20 years ago for 1/3 this make and size cost now. Digital pianos have not come far in terms of sound modeling, they have a lot of room for improvement, their software is still pretty primitive. As soon as software will be able to emulate piano resonances and tonal differences at the reasonable level, only few will still purchase a 'real piano' - and not because they cannot tell the difference, but due to the cost and convenience. Now digitals compete with entry-level acoustics, as soon as they can compete with mid-price point, there will be not too many buyers left on the market for acoustic pianos as a few have budget for high-end grands. IMO.
Roland HP-507RW | Yamaha U1 | Roland FP-90
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
Digital pianos have come extremely far in terms of sound modelling, and they can emulate piano resonances.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,765
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,765 |
And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...
What!? I think they're beautiful. ++ I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it. I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. I am in shock! The thought of describing a grand piano as ugly..no I just cant picture it! :() I'm sorry for shocking anyone...it has to be a matter of taste...I've just never liked the shape of a grand...it's somehow unbalanced... But I love to play and listen to them
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746 |
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those. True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses. Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752 |
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those. True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses. Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were. The sad part of all this discussion is that, aside from acoustic pianos, we will be replicating our food and other naturally derived items. "They" are already growing hamburger in a petri dish. I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. I imagine that in a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to have real sex, and marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were, that is if, unlike the Shakers, we are still around.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,282 |
I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon. One of the biggest drawbacks with most digitals are their consistent sound - too consistent. If you strike a chord with the same force several times without pedal you can easily get exactly the same sound, which is next to impossible on an acoustic, due to the 'Butterfly Effect'. That's because you're triggering the same velocity level on the DP, which any good pianist can do. The sheer consistency really does become boring in a way acoustics can never be, and contributes to the sterile effect when you try to play expressively, especially in slow music. And slow sustained music is also where sampled DPs show up their flaws: the decay sounds artificial, because it's looped and stretched: no vibrating string decays like that. (In rapidly flowing music like, say, Chopin's Op.10/2, sampled DPs can sound very convincing). And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos - if only all the big DP manufacturers get in on the act, to spur each other on. Another advantage of modeling is that it's easy to tweak so many parameters like level of sustain, tone color, various resonances, pedal effects etc - because the sounds are generated from scratch, not already pre-recorded: there's only so much you can do to pre-recorded piano sounds before they become unacceptably synthetic-sounding. BTW, anyone who isn't familiar with looping and stretching on DP sounds might want to drop in on the Digital Pianos forum and look at the long-standing 'DPBSD Project' thread (DP bullsh*t detector - you get the idea ) where 'dewster' does tests on the sound samples from several DPs........
If music be the food of love, play on!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,924
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,924 |
Yeah, I have gotten a lot of good info at the DP forum. Also, if anyone in this thread has only ever played DPs in the class of Yamaha's Arius and the like, try to play an Avant Grand if you have the chance, it's pretty amazing! No headphones, no recordings, you have to play it yourself to understand what they've done.
That said, I will always prefer organic, go-out-of-tune-when-it-rains pianos!
Started piano June 1999. Proud owner of a Yamaha C2
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,916
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,916 |
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...] "Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask ....
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,282 |
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...] "Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask .... Reminds me of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, as well as a Hollywood movie starring Ewan McGregor (? The Island with Scarlett Johansson)......
If music be the food of love, play on!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon. I'd probably agree with that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746 |
And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos -
I wouldn't give up on sampling yet. As the price of memory continually drops they will soon be able to make an affordable digital without loops and stretches.
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,435
Posts3,349,978
Members111,658
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|