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This was inspired by the 'irksome' thread. Apologies, long post.

All the method books, and all books for beginners I have seen in English language start beginners out in a 'thumbs on C' position. This includes MFPA and Helen Marlais, who in fairness move quickly to put a thumb or either hand on B or D.

What bothers me about this? First off, every single one of my beginners has trouble sharing C between 2 thumbs. It bothers them.

Second, from a reading point of view, for starting out reading, I want them to get to grips first with lines and spaces. Middle C is a leger line (which is a complication they could do without) and treble D and bass B are outwith the 5-line stave, and they get really confused about this being a 'space'.

Now, I can teach it, they can cope, all is fine, but I do ask myself if it really needs to be this difficult.

Some time ago I bought myself a copy of Methode Rose which is used by Suzuki teachers for reading. My copy is in French (the choice was French or Japanese). For various reasons I would not use this book for English-speaking youngsters. The interesting point is starting hand position is RH thumb on treble C and LH 5 on bass C. The advantages of this as a hand position that I can see are:

• Hands are two octaves apart. As soon as they start playing, the instrument gives a more pianistic tone, as a greater pitch-range is being used.
  
  Beginner is more comfortable as hands feel a natural distance apart.
  
  Beginner not yet asked to cope with ledger lines, or the illogical spacing of treble and bass staves.
  
  Both C's to be learned are space notes, D's are line notes, etc

I can't think of any disadvantages to the principle of starting out with hands separated by two octaves. However my problem is that all beginner material available to me assumes 'thumbs on C' and is more advanced by the time it introduces the higher and lower notes.

So my questions (to anyone who is still following such a long post):

1) Is there something I'm missing?

2) Are there other English-language beginner materials that teach from this note-set first?

Hmmmm, don't know of any books with the hands two octaves apart, but there are a couple I know of that start with the hands one octave apart, in "C position" : the Bastien Piano Basics course (after some playing on the black keys, which I always skip in beginner books) and the Alfred's Basic course (not Premier). Alfred starts with these notes on the staff, although it introduces middle C position in pre reading first.

A trick I use with my students for D and B: we say D "dangles" below the line and B "bobs" his head above the line. This helps them associate those notes as being in a space and not having a line through them.

You haven't seen many American methods, then! Music Tree Time to Begin starts on black keys. When the grand staff is introduced, it works from the landmarks treble G, middle C and bass F.

Music Pathways starts with black key clusters and quickly moves to open 5ths at various locations on the keyboard. When it gets to staff reading, students are on high C and low C!

Celebrate Piano starts with black key clusters also, but staff reading begins at treble C and bass C.

I think every course, at some point, will have a thumbs on C piece, but the courses listed above do that rarely.

This crossed my mind in the other thread too. As you say the majority of tutors do begin with middle C position in each hand. I have never really found that this causes problems with learning to read music as three of the main points of reference (middle C, treble G and bass F) are reinforced regularly. In fact I have found from past experience of the American tutors where the first pieces don't use the stave at all that these students take longer to learn their notes. Another benefit if you like is that they learn to cope with the symmetry of the stave and quickly get used to using their alphabet backwards as the LH notes descend from C. I think this is useful.

What bothers me most is that it's not a very comfortable position to play in. Just this morning I was teaching a boy who is beyond middle C position and exploring more of the keyboard with his current pieces. We revisited an earlier piece which was in middle C position and he said it felt 'tight' and I know exactly what he meant. I can appreciate that this position often allows them to play melodies with a larger range of notes from an early stage. But then most of them find it more satisfying to have the melody in the RH and an accompaniment in the LH

I can kind of see arguments for and against but have to say I prefer the books which move away from this position sooner rather than later.

Love it!

All useful info, thanks. No, Minniemay, I don't see that many American methods because they are not very available here. Some I have ordered from across the pond, but sometimes they are quite culturally inappropriate.

I take Chris' students point about it feeling 'tight'.

My problem? My students spend too long there. Probably if they practiced more (and a few do) we could move on quicker. But at the end of the day, I need them to know some things properly (like learning those notes on the staff) before we move onto new notes, otherwise confusion abounds.

I do use the primers with thorough 'pre-reading' skills before asking them to read from the stave. Chris, is that what you meant about the students who take longer to learn notes?

I have not found that students who use pre-staff notation take longer to learn notes. If they do, it's my fault for not reinforcing the skill.

Though not a "method book", Bartok's Mikrokosmos starts exactly where you describe, TLT.

Music Pathways deserves another mention. I don't use it past the "B" level books, but it does a wonderful job of introducing beginners to a wide range of positions and a huge range of notes. It does tend to make for a slower learning curve at first, much like teaching kids two languages from birth, but once they catch on to note reading, they can read everything and not just the notes right around middle C and in C major.

The first notes taught are high C and low C, followed by middle, followed by treble and bass C's. Then seconds and thirds above and below, followed by fourths, and finally fifths.

I tend to avoid "thumbs on C" for the first year or two entirely if I can, with the notable exception of Christmas music.

Good point about Mikrokosmos. I've never liked it for teaching, however.

Brinestone, what would I have to buy exactly to find out about Music Pathways? I can find Piano Discoveries, Piano Activies, and Piano Solos for levels A and B. How much is needed?

The Discoveries book is the core book. Solos is just pieces and Activities is mostly writing activities.

I'm not sure what the huge problem is here. Many, if not most American methods, and I assume other nations as well, begin using long fingers on black keys, then move to middle C for a few pages, then on to C major. But even if the thumbs share middle C for a while, so what? As I've said to my students, "Don't your thumbs get along with each other?" This usually gets a huge smile out of them and generally, end of problem. Also, they can drop the unused thumb momentarily or shift it aside, if space is really an issue.

The teacher should understand the pedagogical reason for this progression, so you can help your student with confidence. The student needs to learn both keyboard geometry and music notation, generally at the same time. We do little drills up and down the keyboard to help the student with learning the keyboard geometry, at least at the most elementary level, but learning the grand staff is more complex. Most teachers have found the use of landmarks is extremely effective in helping the student learn their way about the GS.

The Methode Rose can be bought in English as well. Perhaps it would have Japanese and English, or English and French.

John, I don't understand the reason. I understand that we need to teach them some notes somewhere, then allow them to become familiar with them, but I don't understand why it needs to be thumbs on C.

Why can't it be with hands an octave apart?

Don't get be wrong, we cope, but I can't help but feel that tradition is making things more difficult than it needs to be.

From where? I'm not sure i would use it even if it was in English. The layout is confusing for beginners' eyes, the notes far too small, and too confusing with fingering for both hands written on the same stave. Apart from that, and the artwork, I love it.

I've always thought it was mostly to do with the connection between treble and bass staves or 'the grand stave' as most books call it. That the notes move alphabetically through that mid point so the two sets of five lines they see are not thought of as completely different things. Also I think the symmetry and contrary motion movements are worthwhile, especially with younger ones. It's much easier to play a C major scale in contrary motion than it is in similar motion. So it does make sense for RH to start with thumb and progress upwards and LH downwards.

Theoretically, you could begin anywhere, but I suspect most of us would be easily confused if we started learning the grand staff at disparate points, different for each hand. Most non-keyboard instrumentalists begin on treble G or bass F, depending on instrument, or middle C if using the C clef. Then learn staff notation a note at a time, as they move away from the key note. Pianists, by beginning on a common key for both hands, learn a common key that's frequently played with either hand. Using middle C, the left hand is learned down to F, then moving to bass C, the left hand is learned from C up to G, offering overlap with what was previously learned. Likewise, the RH is moved up to G, there is a common key to help the student maintain bearings.

I don't know if the current method is a result of rigorous intellectual investigation, or trial and error, or some combination of both, but it works amazingly well for the vast majority of students. You should probably deviate from it only in very special cases.

If a student is "dyslexic", meaning left-right and up-down disorientation, I see a lot of potential confusion. I think if I had studied that way, it would have messed me up. I already had major problems in primary school in regards to writing on the red or blue lines, and which way to turn letters. Just considering this makes me dizzy. I'd rather relate to the notes and not the fingers of hands that are backward to each other.

I do not think starting from middle C position is a problem, however, I do think staying in middle C position too long is a problem. How long is too long? 5 lessons is too long in my studio. I have some self-made sheet that teach reading in step and skip from five-finger positions in all white keys and a systematic way of have students memorize all the “name” of the notes on music staff by 5th lesson. So, combination of using flash card, ipad games, enforcement of reading in step and skip, students are able to read in all hand positions very fast. So, it is two skills that I emphasis: reading note in flash card (single out the note) and reading notes in directions and intervallic (a group of notes). In my studio, all my students accomplished these two skills when they still playing piano in the “pre-staff notation”. This approach will give them fearless feeling when they start playing piano on regular music notation because they “know” all the notes, they just have to spend time to find it.

Also, I do not think Faber’s Piano Adventure has it wrong when it started from middle C position. By the time student finish the Primer Books, I gave them “Gold Star Performance Primer Level” in purple color and that is the best book ever that I could have my students start moving around in their hand positions, it is all over the place. Yes, TLT you are right then they have pieces that place thumb in D for RH and in B for LH because it is near middle C so that students won’t feel “too far away from home”. The series stays in five finger positions until Level 2B to start to have scales passage, sometimes stretching or squeezing from five-finger position.

I agree with KS. Only with student with dyslexia, you might want to avoid middle C position like plague.

Add on: I know Piano Adventure is not the best method book out there, it is just I am too comfortable with it and I see great result of it when combine with my self-made system, that is why it doesn't occur to me that I should switch to any other method books yet. YET.

thanks