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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045402
03/09/13 08:19 AM
03/09/13 08:19 AM
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Today I played the GX-1, GX-2, and GX-3. These models were pretty well tuned and prepped. The touch is indeed quite light, certainly lighter than the RX-2 in the same store, and even a bit lighter than the SK-2 they had, though that difference was subtle.

The on-site technician explained that the strings in the GX-line are thicker than those in the RX-line and the SK-line. This gives the GX a more powerful sound than the RX.

Now about the tone: As expected the bigger the piano, the fuller the bass, and I preferred the GX-3. That said, to be honest the tone of the GX-line is not my favorite. I had the same issues as I had with a recent second-hand RX-2: when the volume went above a certain level I heard ringing or a kind of metal-plate sound (see this thread). I am fully aware that it could be me, so probably 99% of the people would not hear it, but I do. A tuner told me that there are some Kawai owners who have similar issues with their instruments, but they are just a few, so I am probably part of this minority. I suspect that it is an overly enthusiastic sound-board resonance feeding back to the duplex scaling. Interestingly, other RX-2's do not seem to have this issue, or much less. I played another second-hand RX-2 today that had it much less than the second-hand RX-2 I played before. And some of this resonance gives a piano its character, so it is not all bad as long as it is not excessive. I found it a bit too much in the GXs, though: it could be me, the acoustics of the room, or these particular batches of the instruments, I don't know. It kind of leaves me scratching my head. I would love to hear others' opinions about this issue.

Did anyone notice that the price of the GX is not that much different from the SK? (I am speaking about the situation in Japan; maybe it is different elsewhere) The SK-2, for example, is just 30% more expensive than the GX-2. What you get for this difference is a very subtle and beautiful tone, dampers that are easier to control, wood that has weathered longer, the service of Kawai's top-tuners, etc. So, if I would be in the market for a GX, I would seriously consider an SK of a smaller size to remain within a certain budget.


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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045462
03/09/13 10:45 AM
03/09/13 10:45 AM
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That is so disappointing. Me and quite of few others have had that same issue with the Kawai Pianos. I was so hoping that this new GX would have fixed the issue. If you dig, on the internet, you will find that MANY have the issue with the Kawai pianos. I was even willing to upgrade to the SK line, but I still heard that horrible ringing and piercing overtone.

I went through 3 RX pianos (with the same issue) and I have a friend in Australia that went through 3 RX's himself. He settled for a RX6 but still hears that horrible overtone and is constantly trying to fix it (5 years) and NOTHING fixes it.

I so was hoping Kawai would have listened to consumers on this issue, but it appears it is only worsened on the new GX. I have saved my $ for the new GX and now I won't even bother. I Love, Love the action on the Kawai's and the beauty of their finish, but that horrible ringing overtone in the RX ans SK's and now even worse in the GX is disappointing beyond belief. Except for that issue, which is a deal breaker for me and many others, the Kawai pianos are simply the best!

There has been much conversation on this forum and others about this issue and the solutions tried have been from hammers, strings, voicing etc. etc., but I always said the problem is in the plate. I'm no tech, but I've done my research and I'm probably wrong since the GX uses a different plate, but I know it's not the strings or hammers or scale design as it is in EVERY one of their pianos, some worse, some not so bad, but if this GX has made that issue worse, you can keep your piano Kawai. It truly is a shame.

I'm now going to try to find a piano that plays as nice as the Kawai, but doesn't sound like one!

Last edited by Justplay; 03/09/13 10:52 AM.
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Justplay] #2045502
03/09/13 01:23 PM
03/09/13 01:23 PM
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Hang on! I think that you are jumping to conclusions on the new range of Kawai GX pianos which you have not even played and based on someone else's opinion.
I am not disputing your right to express your opinion about Kawai pianos or any other pianos, but I believe your stating "the problem is in the plate" is speculative and unsubstantiated.

Kawai pianos in general are both well respected and very popular with the majority of piano professionals and piano enthusiasts on this forum.

If you really love the touch of Kawai instruments, but want a top class sound, then you should be considering the Shigeru Kawai range.

Robert.

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: AJF] #2045607
03/09/13 05:56 PM
03/09/13 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AJF
Why would you think that it's just marketing when just a few posts above KawaiDon clearly outlined the tangible improvements made to the line? What's wrong with a company improving their products? It doesn't make your RX any less of an instrument then it was when you bought it.


Well, salesmen will tell you anything. Adding new "features" to a piano doesn't necessarily make it better. Not knocking Don at all, but he works for Kawai.

Nothing wrong with improving a product, but from some of the reviews on this thread, it sounds like the tone on the GX is nothing spectacular, although I'm sure the price is.

How long has the Steinway Model D been the Model D? You don't see them coming out with a DX, D2, R2D2 or whatever, although I'm sure there have been improvements made.

I'm not bad rapping Kawai (heck, I have one) but I'm just commenting on what seems like the latest craze. Everything's always "new and improved", but is it, really?


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Justplay] #2045610
03/09/13 06:04 PM
03/09/13 06:04 PM
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Justplay, it is too early to draw conclusions on the GX series based on my experiences. The GX was improved in many aspects over the RX, but I noticed this sound when I played them in this particular room. It will be good to hear the experiences of others before jumping to conclusions.

Regarding the SK series, I played several of them in several shops, and I never had any issues with them. They are wonderful instruments!


Kawai RX-2
Kawai PN390 digital
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Radio.Octave] #2045625
03/09/13 06:25 PM
03/09/13 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Originally Posted by AJF
Why would you think that it's just marketing when just a few posts above KawaiDon clearly outlined the tangible improvements made to the line? What's wrong with a company improving their products? It doesn't make your RX any less of an instrument then it was when you bought it.


Well, salesmen will tell you anything. Adding new "features" to a piano doesn't necessarily make it better. Not knocking Don at all, but he works for Kawai.

Nothing wrong with improving a product, but from some of the reviews on this thread, it sounds like the tone on the GX is nothing spectacular, although I'm sure the price is.

How long has the Steinway Model D been the Model D? You don't see them coming out with a DX, D2, R2D2 or whatever, although I'm sure there have been improvements made.

I'm not bad rapping Kawai (heck, I have one) but I'm just commenting on what seems like the latest craze. Everything's always "new and improved", but is it, really?


I guess you'll just have to play one and decide for yourself.

The Steinway example you site is interesting. One of the ways Steinway has continued to market their instruments is by stating that their instruments are (without a doubt) the very best and perhaps that their instruments don't need improvement as they are already as perfect as they can be. To me this is arrogant.
On the other hand, Japanese companies seem to generally take a stance of continued research and continued improvements. Yamaha does it too.
But as I said initially, its up to the individual to decide whether or not said improvements are real and tangible or just marketing. I can't imagine though that a company like Kawai would have garnered such a great reputation over the last however many decades with marketing ploys not backed up with real results. kawai's 'plastic' actions from 30 years ago actually hurt their reputation initially but because it was a technology they believed in they stayed the course and it has paid off.
Also based on KawaiDons excellent reputation for honesty and a mostly objective stance on subjects which has been well established on this site over the years, I think its safe to say that your assumptions about his biases are ignorant. Go ahead and read over his past posts and you'll see what I mean.

Last edited by AJF; 03/09/13 06:26 PM.


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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: PianistInJapan] #2045645
03/09/13 07:13 PM
03/09/13 07:13 PM
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It may be helpful for us to remember the old adage: "You get what you pay for." The high volume production pianos of Yamaha and Kawai are but a third, maybe even a quarter of the price of the comparable model of the highest quality instruments and I believe they represent excellent value for money. However, there will be compromises in the quality of the build and the components when you compare these instruments to the best that money can buy.

Dissatisfaction arises from unreasonable expectations-when we become aware that our piano Y does not have the brilliant, glittering treble or the powerful, growling bass of the same sized, top tier piano X. Both Yamaha and Kawai piano have their distinctive voice and provide a different playing experience from their European competitors.

As with people, I think we should be able to celebrate a kind of "cultural diversity" among pianos. The range and choice of instruments available today should be able to gratify every taste and preference, although, unfortunately, not every bank balance.

Robert.

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Radio.Octave] #2045672
03/09/13 08:19 PM
03/09/13 08:19 PM
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musicpassion Offline
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Originally Posted by Radio.

How long has the Steinway Model D been the Model D? You don't see them coming out with a DX, D2, R2D2


Oh - you haven't seen that model? It's the one with the trash can shaped case. And it's tonal range was really limited. Not surprised you haven't seen one.


Pianist and Piano Teacher
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045682
03/09/13 08:49 PM
03/09/13 08:49 PM
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The great pianos of the world have all been designed by a small number of top people.

In every case I know, these people have always very distinct tonal outcomes in mind not just doing engineering for engineering sake.

A good example of this was the late Joseph Pramberger who set out to design a piano not only with similar features to Steinway but [hopefully] also being similar in tone and performance.

One can certainly discuss if and to which extent these efforts have been successful [I did with Joe..] but without knowing what was to be accomplished, it's very hard to judge anything.

Unless companies state specific goals in re-designing their pianos, it's next to impossible to make a judgement if and to which extent they have been successful.

In similar cases, for example like the G-and C-series Yamahas, many people still don't agree that the C's are indeed automatically superior to G's, at least not across the board.

Suspecting that same is happening with the new models by both Kawai and Yamaha, notwithstanding the fact that they are very nice pianos either way.

If noticeable tonal and performance differences are not consistently to be found between old and "new" models, "new design", at least to me, is more of a word than reality.

From what has transpired so far in this thread, the jury still seems to be out to which extent "new" is also always "better" and most importantly - "noticeably so"

My one cent.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 03/09/13 08:56 PM.

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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: musicpassion] #2045683
03/09/13 08:50 PM
03/09/13 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by musicpassion
Originally Posted by Radio.

How long has the Steinway Model D been the Model D? You don't see them coming out with a DX, D2, R2D2


Oh - you haven't seen that model? It's the one with the trash can shaped case. And it's tonal range was really limited. Not surprised you haven't seen one.


smile



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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Radio.Octave] #2045753
03/10/13 01:32 AM
03/10/13 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave

Well, salesmen will tell you anything. Adding new "features" to a piano doesn't necessarily make it better. Not knocking Don at all, but he works for Kawai.


Although I understand your skepticism and am very wary of the hype posted by manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and even over zealous owners, I can add one data point.

Got to play the entire GX range at NAMM. Then I got to try two 5'5" models, back to back; one with the new action, one with the previous one. Although the room was too crowded and noisy to make a detailed observation of the tone, I could definitely feel a difference in the actions and prefer the response of the new design. The difference was most easily perceived at the moment the key was set into motion- less effort and better control over the descent of the key.

The tone of the 7,6,5 models seemed nice, and then less enveloping as I progressed to the smaller models, though I made the mistake of starting with the largest pianos first.


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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045807
03/10/13 04:58 AM
03/10/13 04:58 AM
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Are improvements to tone and performance the only conceivable improvements that can happen to a piano?

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: debrucey] #2045844
03/10/13 09:11 AM
03/10/13 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by debrucey
Are improvements to tone and performance the only conceivable improvements that can happen to a piano?


Great question.

How about improvements that increase tuning stability or longevity?


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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Steve Cohen] #2045845
03/10/13 09:19 AM
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That were exactly improvements made to the GX series, as it is equipped with bigger and stronger pin blocks.


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Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045847
03/10/13 09:22 AM
03/10/13 09:22 AM
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Aesthetic improvements are improvements also IMO.

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2045865
03/10/13 09:50 AM
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Are there any out there who have upgraded from the RX-2 to a GX-2. The new piano interests me. Any dealers out there know what the typical trade in value of an RX-2 (2006) should fetch me and are there any Kawai dealers in the Tampa area so I can try one out? The tone on my current RX-2 is exceptional which worries me to replace it, but the new key size change and improved construction intrigues me.

Last edited by Jethro; 03/10/13 10:02 AM.
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Norbert] #2045978
03/10/13 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
If noticeable tonal and performance differences are not consistently to be found between old and "new" models, "new design", at least to me, is more of a word than reality.

From what has transpired so far in this thread, the jury still seems to be out to which extent "new" is also always "better" and most importantly - "noticeably so"

My one cent.

Norbert


Well stated.


Shigeru Kawai SK5L
Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2046101
03/10/13 05:26 PM
03/10/13 05:26 PM
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I have an 2005 RX-2.

Besides the ringing treble issue stated above, which my piano also has -especially with the f#5, g5, g#5, a5 and a#5 notes- the tuning stability of these notes (some more, some less) are worse than the rest of the piano.

Therefore, IMO, they have made a good decision by trying to improve the tuning stability.

Though I find my piano's action just perfect, my brother who prefers a lighter action finds it a bit on the heavy side. So, again, making the key lengths longer and somewhat lighting up the action is a good decision too.

I don't see anything wrong or to be ashamed of improving their products on their side.

But, also the what you get for what you pay argument is also very true.

That said, IMO,the Kawai RX pianos are well build, good quality pianos for the money they are asking. I am one of a happy owner.

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Rafterman] #2046200
03/10/13 08:48 PM
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Kawai makes an incredible action! I only wished they would address the ringing/overtones on their pianos. Also, this is not the first I heard of unstable tuning stability. I've come to resign to the fact that the harsh overtones is indicative of the Kawai's and some may not notice or it won't bother them. And then there are those like Hakki that do notice it but still love the piano.

Here's to Kawai for an incredible piano action!

Re: New GX Kawai Pianos and Shigeru from NAMM 2013 [Re: Justplay] #2047088
03/12/13 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Are there any out there who have upgraded from the RX-2 to a GX-2. The new piano interests me. Any dealers out there know what the typical trade in value of an RX-2 (2006) should fetch me and are there any Kawai dealers in the Tampa area so I can try one out? The tone on my current RX-2 is exceptional which worries me to replace it, but the new key size change and improved construction intrigues me.


Well, I upgraded from an RX-2 to a RX-6 BLAK. There is a significant size difference, so it was definitely worth it. If you've already got an RX-2 you're happy with, I doubt it's worth it to go to a GX-2 of the same size. If you can play one, give it a shot and see what your ears and hands tell you. When I upgraded to my RX-6, the dealer gave me back the full amount I originally paid for the RX-2. So, if you find a GX that you like, who knows, maybe they'll make you a good deal.

I actually just bought a Dawson string cover, and if I'm not mistaken, he runs a Kawai dealership in Sarasota. I PM'd you a link. Might be worth checking out.




Originally Posted by Justplay
Kawai makes an incredible action! I only wished they would address the ringing/overtones on their pianos. Also, this is not the first I heard of unstable tuning stability. I've come to resign to the fact that the harsh overtones is indicative of the Kawai's and some may not notice or it won't bother them. And then there are those like Hakki that do notice it but still love the piano.

Here's to Kawai for an incredible piano action!


My Kawai definitely has overtones, but all pianos do. When I first got it, the treble was way too bright, but it's been responding well to voicing. I recently got a string cover, and it actually seems to tame the higher frequency sounds a little bit (if that's what bothers you). It almost sounds like I had the hammers voiced. It's a subtle effect, but I definitely notice it.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
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