Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
63 registered members (7uturu, ArthurM, BachToTheFuture, AZNpiano, AprilE, 17 invisible), 1,429 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2046559 - 03/11/13 04:43 PM Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings?  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
I'm a pianist, not a technician. If I have the wound strings replaced on my piano, it is better to replace the pins as well, assuming that it is easier to wind the coils in the shop, or keep the original pins and wind the coils in situ? Also, if the pins are replaced, do they increase in size from #2 to #3 or stay the same? This is a new piano.

(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2046579 - 03/11/13 05:28 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
When the job is completed, the tuning pins need to be tight enough to last the lifetime of the bass strings - several decades of home use. On old pianos the pins are routinely replaced, in new pianos they can stay if the pins are only turned out 1.5 turns - enough to slip on the pre-coiled ends of the new strings. If pins are replaced, their size needs to be stepped up to ensure a good torque reading.

#2046580 - 03/11/13 05:28 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
on a new piano you keep the pins, the only VERY important thing is to make the coils on an a pin outside of the piano, then install that coil on the pin in the piano.

That way no heat, no lowering of the friction for the pins (in the basses that could be really important as the strings can be more tense than the steel strings (but it is the same when changing the last 2 sections of wire in the treble)

On an old piano it will depend of the situation, but if the pins have to be changed it is better to change them all.

one size more, generally (unless old oval holes pin block)

Changing the 2 last treble sections is considered 12 hours job, so after having broken a few treble strings the idea to change the treble strings and to file the capo make sense.

When changing all the wire and the pins, the agrafes can be changed as well, generally (for a better tone, assuming the agrafes have some quality)

Greetings


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2046586 - 03/11/13 05:37 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Thanks gentlemen, for your timely and informative replies. The piano is a M&H BB 2009. While I really like the bass sound, I have played numerous pianos in my area with J.D. Grandt bass strings, and, even on uprights there is a purity of the harmonic structure that eclipses the M&H bass clarity.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2046591 - 03/11/13 05:45 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I cannot say, indeed the bass strings have a certain quality, but the soundboard also is filtering the tone.

A very good string winder can reproduce the original scaling or change the diameters for less tension (or more even) , or sometime to correct a less than optimum scale, or just because the original wire quality was different from what is available today.

I would talk directly with the bass winder, asking him in what direction he works and what can be expected on your instrument.

there are indeed different "styles" of winding, some having more "cymbal" tone than others., differnt terminations, differnt winding orientation, But the lenghts are fixed, and the transition between long bridge and basses cannot be changed much.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2046612 - 03/11/13 06:24 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
For a late model such as this one, use the original tuning pins as Isaac has mentioned. Use a dummy pin to make the coils. There is no need in this case for replacement tuning pins unless the originals have been somehow damaged, but I couldn’t see how that would come about.

For the string maker to know what sound you like it might be a good idea to try and obtain measurements of the bass strings in one of the aforementioned instruments that has improved bass sound. This can be compared to what is in your instrument now and give the string maker an idea of where you want to go with tone.

John may even be familiar already with this change on the M&H model you have there, not sure really.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2046651 - 03/11/13 07:41 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 595
Gatsbee13 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Gatsbee13  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 595
Los Angeles
I'm not a tech either but was thinking about changing out the bass strings on my 82 baldwin L with Mapes.. Never heard of JD Grandt strings, but will look into them.. Btw: does mason and Hamlin use Mapes for bass wire?

#2046652 - 03/11/13 07:44 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Thanks again everyone. I was hoping that I could keep the original pins, so that is good. I think John has the full specs on the current crop of BB's, and my technician has done a number of installations of the Grandt strings - just not on a new piano. While I don't want to second guess him, I do like to know what options are out there. Cheers.

#2046653 - 03/11/13 07:51 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Gatsbee13]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted by Gatsbee13
I'm not a tech either but was thinking about changing out the bass strings on my 82 baldwin L with Mapes.. Never heard of JD Grandt strings, but will look into them.. Btw: does mason and Hamlin use Mapes for bass wire?


Bass strings are a wrapped string. The center core might be Mapes. Best to ask M&H about that, or perhaps one of their dealers.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2046665 - 03/11/13 08:25 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
I don't know what string supplier M&H uses. I read somewhere that they upgraded their bass strings for production pianos a few years ago, but I don't know what the change-over date was.

#2046677 - 03/11/13 09:25 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
It sounds like you are not really satisfied with the tone of the bass in your piano and that you are considering exchanging the strings as a remedy.

I would caution against too high expectations. Unless the bass strings are faulty, which is fairly unlikely, switching them from one manufacturer to another will usually only have a very marginal effect on the tone. For the most part, the tonal character is inherent in the piano scaling and soundboard design.


#2046687 - 03/11/13 09:45 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Actually, I really like the sound of the bass, though I want to do a little voicing to alter the relative partial levels somewhat. Below the resonant frequency of the soundboard ( right at C2 ), the 3rd partial is a little too prominent. I am going to keep playing in the instrument for another year or so before I make any changes. The instrument is still opening up.

#2046768 - 03/12/13 12:34 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,620
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,620
Michigan
Originally Posted by Mwm
Thanks gentlemen, for your timely and informative replies. The piano is a M&H BB 2009. While I really like the bass sound, I have played numerous pianos in my area with J.D. Grandt bass strings, and, even on uprights there is a purity of the harmonic structure that eclipses the M&H bass clarity.


You might also consider the Profundo strings by Isaac. You can hear samples of those bass strings on Grandpianoman's thread.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2046787 - 03/12/13 01:24 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dale Fox  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by Mwm
Actually, I really like the sound of the bass, though I want to do a little voicing to alter the relative partial levels somewhat. Below the resonant frequency of the soundboard ( right at C2 ), the 3rd partial is a little too prominent. I am going to keep playing in the instrument for another year or so before I make any changes. The instrument is still opening up.


Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread. Why do you state that the board has a resonant frequency at about C2? How would you measure this phenomena on a strung board? Which partials are you trying to get more or less of?


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
#2046842 - 03/12/13 07:39 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 276
Blues beater Offline
Full Member
Blues beater  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 276
Austin, Texas USA
Just a DIYer here. I replaced the bass strings on a 100 year old upright. I was told when I bought the strings and I was told by my tech/tuner I would need to replace the tuning pins with #2s. But they seemed tight and I did not replace them. I wound the strings onto the pegs instead of pre-forming the coils. After a few weeks of my home rough re-tuning, the bass was pretty stable and I called in my tuner/tech to do a professional tuning of the whole piano. He was quite surprised to find the pins properly tight.

Not saying that any of what I got away with was good practice, of course, just that it worked for me. If ever I want the pins tighter, there is plenty of room to drive them in deeper.


Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
#2046876 - 03/12/13 09:27 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Dale Fox]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Dale Fox
Originally Posted by Mwm
Actually, I really like the sound of the bass, though I want to do a little voicing to alter the relative partial levels somewhat. Below the resonant frequency of the soundboard ( right at C2 ), the 3rd partial is a little too prominent. I am going to keep playing in the instrument for another year or so before I make any changes. The instrument is still opening up.


Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread. Why do you state that the board has a resonant frequency at about C2? How would you measure this phenomena on a strung board? Which partials are you trying to get more or less of?


There two checks one can do to find the rough resonant frequency of the soundboard. 1) An FFT spectrum from my oscilloscope using a full range microphone shows the peak amplitude of the board as I play the notes from A0 up. 2) You can feel and hear the increase of the fundamental amplitude as you play notes descending. It peaks at about C2 on my piano, then diminishes. No sound radiator can efficiently radiate energy below its resonant frequency, hence the relatively large amplitudes of the upper partials of the notes on the piano below its resonant freq.

#2046877 - 03/12/13 09:29 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by Mwm
Thanks gentlemen, for your timely and informative replies. The piano is a M&H BB 2009. While I really like the bass sound, I have played numerous pianos in my area with J.D. Grandt bass strings, and, even on uprights there is a purity of the harmonic structure that eclipses the M&H bass clarity.


You might also consider the Profundo strings by Isaac. You can hear samples of those bass strings on Grandpianoman's thread.


I have read about Isaac's strings and heard them as well. They are wonderful. It makes the decision very hard, if I make it at all.

#2046878 - 03/12/13 09:31 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Blues beater]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Blues beater
Just a DIYer here. I replaced the bass strings on a 100 year old upright. I was told when I bought the strings and I was told by my tech/tuner I would need to replace the tuning pins with #2s. But they seemed tight and I did not replace them. I wound the strings onto the pegs instead of pre-forming the coils. After a few weeks of my home rough re-tuning, the bass was pretty stable and I called in my tuner/tech to do a professional tuning of the whole piano. He was quite surprised to find the pins properly tight.

Not saying that any of what I got away with was good practice, of course, just that it worked for me. If ever I want the pins tighter, there is plenty of room to drive them in deeper.


I guess you were lucky. I'm glad it worked for you. Enjoy playing your instruments.

#2046880 - 03/12/13 09:36 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Dale Fox]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Dale Fox

Which partials are you trying to get more or less of?


Mostly the dissonant ones.


#2046881 - 03/12/13 09:37 AM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Blues beater]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Blues beater
Just a DIYer here. I replaced the bass strings on a 100 year old upright. I was told when I bought the strings and I was told by my tech/tuner I would need to replace the tuning pins with #2s. But they seemed tight and I did not replace them. I wound the strings onto the pegs instead of pre-forming the coils. After a few weeks of my home rough re-tuning, the bass was pretty stable and I called in my tuner/tech to do a professional tuning of the whole piano. He was quite surprised to find the pins properly tight.

Not saying that any of what I got away with was good practice, of course, just that it worked for me. If ever I want the pins tighter, there is plenty of room to drive them in deeper.


I hope next time you will do it right, then.

tapping the tuning pins is sometime an option, but rarely, and even on a recent piano untwisting 3 turns then back , a tuning pin, will make a noticeable loss in pins firmness (possibly on your piano it did not as much because the pins where old yet and they did not "sand" the inside of the block as much.

That said , a good tune can "lock" a pin as long as the hammer does not spring back, but some torque is necessary to be at ease.
(torque is raised by the wire stress, also hence the advantage to tune at 440 whenever possible, it may eventually help the tuning to stay put)

Last edited by Olek; 03/12/13 09:38 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2047287 - 03/12/13 09:53 PM Re: Do you replace pins when replacing bass strings? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 276
Blues beater Offline
Full Member
Blues beater  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 276
Austin, Texas USA
Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Blues beater
Just a DIYer here. I replaced the bass strings on a 100 year old upright. I was told when I bought the strings and I was told by my tech/tuner I would need to replace the tuning pins with #2s. But they seemed tight and I did not replace them. I wound the strings onto the pegs instead of pre-forming the coils. After a few weeks of my home rough re-tuning, the bass was pretty stable and I called in my tuner/tech to do a professional tuning of the whole piano. He was quite surprised to find the pins properly tight.

Not saying that any of what I got away with was good practice, of course, just that it worked for me. If ever I want the pins tighter, there is plenty of room to drive them in deeper.


I hope next time you will do it right, then.

tapping the tuning pins is sometime an option, but rarely, and even on a recent piano untwisting 3 turns then back , a tuning pin, will make a noticeable loss in pins firmness (possibly on your piano it did not as much because the pins where old yet and they did not "sand" the inside of the block as much.

That said , a good tune can "lock" a pin as long as the hammer does not spring back, but some torque is necessary to be at ease.
(torque is raised by the wire stress, also hence the advantage to tune at 440 whenever possible, it may eventually help the tuning to stay put)


At this time there is no need to tap them in. I tapped in a couple and my tuner said they were a little too tight. he is pretty surprised the way it worked out. And yes, I am happy to say the piano is up A440 and holding.

Don


Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
(ad)
A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Posting images
by BruceD. 05/22/17 11:29 PM
Looking for Carillon Bell Sound
by SoundThumb. 05/22/17 11:08 PM
Uneven Key - Casio CDP200R
by noodleq. 05/22/17 10:54 PM
Sympathetic vibrations
by DonHillPianos. 05/22/17 09:54 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,827
Posts2,628,915
Members87,852
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0