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#2046373 - 03/11/13 07:38 AM Modern improvements to the Piano  
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peterws Offline
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Northern England.
I have these ideas from time to time. Moneymaking ones. Like Hydraulic powered golf clubs (which would get you barred from the golf club) or, rotating outdoor clothes dryers (someone beat me to it) So, I Proudly Present to you good people - A Blueprint for a Maintenance Free Piano!

It is 2013. Pianos have moving parts. Cars have moving parts which require no maintenance save oil changes and minor adjustments over a prolonged mileage.

So firstly - we have the Electrically Operated String Tuner. Yes, you`d need a few. But they would perform minute movement neceassary to tighten up any string that had slipped out of tune. A rachet could maintain the string effectively; the tuning device would operate according to the information it had concerning the string. You wouldn`t know it was happening; you would know that it NEVER went out of tune. And if, after a time, the rate of tuning increased, it could indicate the need to restring. AND - get this - they could be set for any temperament instantly! How good`s that?

The keys and hammer mechanisms associated with striking the strings, well, I can see no reason why modern materials and bearings which could be used should ever need adjustment; this could surely be designed into any piano that ever existed.

These are just two suggestions easily designable yet to my knowledge, not. You could also have hammer felts which were synthetic, and repairable by filling in the slots which the strings generate over time with the proprietary filler made for the job. And of course, there could be various grades available to give your piano the sound most appealing to you.

All this good stuff coming your way guys! Who`s gonna make a fortune? You can use my ideas anytime you like . . .

Or you can laugh, shake your heads.. .and continue paying heavily . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
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#2046388 - 03/11/13 08:51 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Eric Gloo Online content
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Richfield Springs, New York
The self-tuning piano already exists.


Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York
#2046394 - 03/11/13 09:13 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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concertina Offline
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Canada
Tell us more, Eric...

#2046403 - 03/11/13 09:44 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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ando Online content
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ando  Online Content
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Melbourne, Australia
I recall reading about a self tuning piano that worked by sending a small electric current through all strings. The current through the strings could be varied which caused a slight thermal expansion or contraction which lowered or raised the pitch. A computer was in charged of sensing and altering the current level through the strings. The piano still needed to be rough tuned by a human, the computer took care of the fine-tuning. That might be what Eric is referring to.

Peter: I get what you are saying, but I think you also underestimate the amount of precision necessary for what you are talking about. Getting machines that involve ratchets and gears to move so incrementally like a good tuner is not an easy task. Of course it could be done - but I think it's prohibitively expensive to do. Piano companies are busy trying to remain profitable so spending maybe $10-20 million on such an exacting engineering project would be beyond most piano companies, with the possible exception of giants like Samick and Pearl River.

Regarding the action parts: I think that's already happening WNG and Kawai both make carbon fiber actions that have great stability and durability. Things like felt bushings will always be wearable items because they have to endure significant friction but they also have cushioning functions. No machine is totally maintenance free though. Steingraeber is building pianos with carbon fiber soundboards. There is some interesting stuff happening out there.

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#2046409 - 03/11/13 10:05 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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here is some reading about Don Gilmore's invention.

Self tuning piano search results


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2046429 - 03/11/13 11:04 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Gilmore's electrically heated strings seem clever, until you consider that the heat used to flatten the at room temp sharp strings, will continue to warm the plate above ambient conditions, and this makes the strings sharp again, and thus the strings will require ever more heat to keep them from climbing sharp by the expanding plate. I predict that after many hours of operation the self-tuning boundaries would be reached and the piano would go back out of tune.

WN&G parts have the potential to work "forever" except for the cushioning parts.

Sheep's wool hammers have a very advantageous non-linear elasticity that is responsible for much of the dynamic tone color variability of a fine piano. I know of no artificial materials equal to the task.

Selfish plug here; I have a patent application in for my "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" and you can link to a just published article about it in the March 2013 PTG journal over in the Tech Forum under the topic Fully Tempered Duplex Scale.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2046437 - 03/11/13 11:21 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Japan
Gilmore's electrically heated strings may save you some dollars on the tuner, but the electricity bill will certainly explode. Imagine how many amperes you'll have to drive through more than 200 wires to heat them up...


Kawai RX-2
Kawai PN390 digital
#2046480 - 03/11/13 01:57 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Eric Gloo]  
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peterws Offline
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Northern England.
"The self-tuning piano already exists."

I`m gutted! frown


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046487 - 03/11/13 02:05 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Originally Posted by peterws
"The self-tuning piano already exists."

I`m gutted! frown


Allow me to quote South Park... "Simpsons did it!" laugh

In all honesty, call me a romantic but the whole technician coming home thing reminds me of old times doctors visits. smile

Last edited by shaolin95; 03/11/13 04:31 PM.

*Young Chang Y185 6'-1"

*Baldwin Hamilton Studio '67 (gone)

*Young Chang Y150 (Del F design) (gone)
#2046547 - 03/11/13 04:00 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Scott Hamlin Offline
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All great ideas, Peter, but until they
make a piano that plays by itself, concider
me bored. yawn

#2046568 - 03/11/13 05:02 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Scott Hamlin]  
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Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Plinky88
All great ideas, Peter, but until they
make a piano that plays by itself, concider
me bored. yawn


www.pianodisc.com


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#2046582 - 03/11/13 05:33 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Northern England.
That pianodisc is more difficult to rig up than any o` my suggestions . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046606 - 03/11/13 06:11 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Scott Hamlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Originally Posted by Plinky88
All great ideas, Peter, but until they
make a piano that plays by itself, concider
me bored. yawn


www.pianodisc.com


I guess I need to remember
to turn on the "sarcasm" tags. laugh

#2046626 - 03/11/13 06:48 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Scott Hamlin]  
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peterws Offline
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Come on, man! This is not boring. I`ve worked out how to do it . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046629 - 03/11/13 06:56 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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ando Online content
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Gilmore's electrically heated strings seem clever, until you consider that the heat used to flatten the at room temp sharp strings, will continue to warm the plate above ambient conditions, and this makes the strings sharp again, and thus the strings will require ever more heat to keep them from climbing sharp by the expanding plate. I predict that after many hours of operation the self-tuning boundaries would be reached and the piano would go back out of tune.


Cast iron has one of the lower thermal expansion coefficients amongst common metals - less than metals used in strings. I think you'd find the system would stabilise relatively quickly. There is far greater mass in the plate than the strings, the currents through the strings are small, and the plate is able to dissipate heat too. Thermal contact between the strings and the plate is not very direct. That means very inefficient heat transfer. I would expect the plate is able to dissipate heat just as fast as it absorbs it. Keep in mind, the piano is supposed to be tuned by a human to a fairly accurate degree, the tiny currents are only to prevent unisons drifting out and minor pitch changes.

In short, I think it works. Not that many people would go for the whole box and dice.

#2046641 - 03/11/13 07:17 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Mark... Offline
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Jersey Shore
Cat electrocuted by self tuning piano...film at 11...

#2046656 - 03/11/13 07:57 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Mark...]  
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Scott Hamlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark...
Cat electrocuted by self tuning piano...film at 11...


[Linked Image]

#2046683 - 03/11/13 09:42 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ando,
Cast iron and high-carbon steel (piano wire) have almost identical thermal co-efficients of expansion. Of course the strings can change temp more rapidly than the casting, over time the heat added to the strings will warm the plate. Gilmore has the strings electrically isolated from the plate-not thermally isolated. If I remember correctly the upper temp he can raise the strings to is around 105F. So if the ambient temp reaches 85F that doesn't leave much room to lower the strings with heat. Granted 85F is a little hot to be playing a piano but it does get done. The plate takes a long time to change temp-but it does over time given a steady input of thermal gradient. Slow temp changes will not change the pitch of a piano because plate and strings react with the same dimensional change.



Self-tuning pianos are an exercise in futility given all the physical and musical constraints.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2046688 - 03/11/13 09:46 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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The self-tuning piano already exists.

#2046797 - 03/12/13 02:37 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: ahhsmurf]  
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Withindale Offline
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Suffolk, England
Electronic transducers that drive the soundboard directly would be an interesting advance.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2046800 - 03/12/13 02:50 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Withindale]  
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peterws Offline
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Northern England.
"The self-tuning piano already exists."

(I know, I`ve already got one. Keep yer voice down man, they might hear ya)


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046805 - 03/12/13 03:01 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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peterws Offline
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"So if the ambient temp reaches 85F that doesn't leave much room to lower the strings with heat. Granted 85F is a little hot to be playing a piano but it does get done.

Rooms may well reach that temp in certain lands. This seems like a good idea needing a bit of a push . . bugger the cat


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046840 - 03/12/13 07:32 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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Roy123 Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Ando,
Cast iron and high-carbon steel (piano wire) have almost identical thermal co-efficients of expansion. Of course the strings can change temp more rapidly than the casting, over time the heat added to the strings will warm the plate. Gilmore has the strings electrically isolated from the plate-not thermally isolated. If I remember correctly the upper temp he can raise the strings to is around 105F. So if the ambient temp reaches 85F that doesn't leave much room to lower the strings with heat. Granted 85F is a little hot to be playing a piano but it does get done. The plate takes a long time to change temp-but it does over time given a steady input of thermal gradient. Slow temp changes will not change the pitch of a piano because plate and strings react with the same dimensional change.



Self-tuning pianos are an exercise in futility given all the physical and musical constraints.


I believe Ando is correct. There is no reason to assume the plate's temperature rise will equal the strings' temperature rise, and many reasons to believe it won't. The strings are above the plate, so convection currents will carry most of the heat from the strings away from the plate. As Ando pointed out, the plate has a very large surface area from which to radiate and convect heat. I bet you'd find that Gilmore's device would raise plate temp a few tenths of a degree, or maybe a degree at the most.

#2046841 - 03/12/13 07:34 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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It was 85 here today - 6 weeks ago, we had days more like 95 max most days for a couple of weeks, 70 at night - how would that fluctuation affect things. In central Australia, temps around 110 daytime, 85-90 at night would be a real problem - but there aren't a real lot of pianos out there.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-15)).
#2046847 - 03/12/13 08:04 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: backto_study_piano]  
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Scott Hamlin Offline
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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
It was 85 here today - 6 weeks ago, we had days more like 95 max most days for a couple of weeks, 70 at night - how would that fluctuation affect things. In central Australia, temps around 110 daytime, 85-90 at night would be a real problem - but there aren't a real lot of pianos out there.



"It's not the heat, it's the humidity!" *discuss* [Linked Image]

#2046851 - 03/12/13 08:22 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Mark...]  
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Dave Horne Offline
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Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Mark...
Cat electrocuted by self tuning piano...film at 11...


smile



website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2046855 - 03/12/13 08:24 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Scott Hamlin Offline
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Scott Hamlin  Offline
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Hey Peter... I think the self-tuning
piano has already been invented. grin

#2046862 - 03/12/13 08:49 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Scott Hamlin]  
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peterws Offline
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Northern England.
I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2046864 - 03/12/13 08:51 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Rochester MN
Introducing the new KitchenAide und Sohne G-220v with Radiant String Technology.

Grill steaks while you play some hot Tangos!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2046915 - 03/12/13 10:50 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]  
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Roger Ransom Offline
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SouthWest Michigan
I would love to have my piano in tune all the time. As a part time tuner, I tune mine myself, but I would still love to not have to do it.

Mr. Gilmore has been working on this a long time and I expect he has addressed all of the issues folks are coming up with.

From time to time he has been on this forum answering questions. I don't know how to contact him but maybe someone does. I would like to know what the status of his project is.


Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7 - Roland FP80
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