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In what order do you teach the scales? Any particular groupings of scales to teach first? Last?

Also, in addition to parallel ascending and descending scales, do you teach other scales, like contrary motion scales, scales in 6th and 10th, and modes?

Right now I teach the C scale first, always two octaves, middle of the piano. Never one octave, NEVER. I cover in detail the idea of groups of three and fours, the idea that the 5th finger is only used as the "terminoator", the note that ends the scale when it stops on the tonic, also the first when it starts inward in either hand on the tonic.

But the moment that works, I go directly to B, Db and Gb. I am a fanatic about reading everything, but for that one thing I teach 100% by rote. I figure I am so far out in front of what is being played that by the time we hit those scales in music, they will be instantly readable - and they are.

Then I move to G major. At that point I start to move in both directions, E major next as a scale that uses only 4 of the black keys, and D which uses two. Finally A.

So that covers C D E G A B Db Gb, 9 of them. At any time I might teach F. I'm not sure of when I prefer to go over that because it sort of throws a monkey wrench in the "5 plus 3" pattern of the other "white scales. Ab is small problem because the logic is like the C scale, thumbs only meeting once per octave. Even though I want all 12 scales for 2 octaves and then for 4 octaves separately, the RH maintains the same position as the scales with all black keys, the 2nd finger merely moving to G natural, but the LH compeltely changes logic, with the dependable 12 on Db and Eb changing to 4 and 3.

Bb and Eb I have to teach separately, as separate patterns.

I am not "married" to this order, but I do have great success with he all black note scales. I find my students, even the young ones, learn them in almost zero time, because they are so logical, and so natural for the hands.

I forgot to answer that part.

In general no. And I often feel that I am skipping something important, but with my time constraints it's all about first things first. If I had more time, or if I had a LOT more time with some students who are at the level that yours are probably at, I'd want to address those issues. But in the music I teach we seem to spend so much more time on LH or RH passage work, with more chordal things going on in the other hand (so common in Chopin, for instance, jazz also), that it is not a priority. Usually when complicated patterns happen in both hands, it is in Bach or something like that where the patterns may be diatonic but they are not scales, and those kinds of problems seem to dominate. Just think of the F major 2-part invention, or the Eb, or the A minor. In the A minor the problems become arpeggiated figures rather than scales. And so on...

I do that, too!

The rest of your order makes sense. I tend to teach F Major a bit earlier.

What about minor scales? Any particular order among natural, harmonic, and melodic? I think ideally all three should be taught at the same time, but for some reason CM splits them in strange pairings from levels 2 through 9.

I'm not a teaching professional, but it seems like it would be logical to teach natural minor first (because it uses the same notes as the relative major), then harmonic minor and wait till later for melodic.

My students have a Circle of 5ths which we use to check off scales as they learn them. We start with C major, then go to G, then to F, adding one or 2 scales per week depending on how the student is doing. 2 octaves, first hands separately then HT, parallel motion. Depending on the age and progress of the beginning student, he will learn all 3 types of minor scales at the same time.

The circle of fiths did it for me, sixty years ago.
But my very pleasant lady teachers never explained tones and semi-tones and how they go to make up the various scales, and they did not tell me to listen to the sounds of the different scales.
I would say that the sound of what ever is to be played is the most important basis for any learning, be it scale or tune. Later the more difficult topic of time can be taken on booard.

Circle of fifths here as well...

And yes:

* contrary motion
* 10ths (and 3rds)
* 6ths
* chromatic
* arpeggios, with the tonal, 1st and 2nd invertion, dominant with a 7th, VII7th
* chords

That's for more advanced students of course... And that's what I did when I was rather advanced...

I do offer some insights into modes and stuff (especially octatonic stuff, wholetone etc... which are more fun to explain), and the students seem to dig them...

When do you move to more than two octaves?

Soooo! easy even for very young. As soon as they understand and can perform thumb-under/third over then they must see that the common sense is: - thumb-under after 4th if one wants to go two octaves.

I think it depends on the student. Some students can do more than two octaves on the first try. Others will take several years. According to the CM Syllabus, 3-octave scales are required at Level 4. Kids can get there in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 years of lessons.

Piano Guild has an "old fashion" order, which most of us use, because that's the requirements. I'm not particularly fond of the order and before I started my students on the Guild program, presented scales similar to Gary's approach.

White key majors, followed by white key harmonic minors. Both just one octave (why on earth? I teach two anyway.)

The black key majors, 2 octaves, followed by black key harmonic minors, also 2 octaves.

This is through the elementary levels, no tempo requirements at all. Just the correct notes.

Beginning with the Intermediate levels, tempos are required. mm=60, quarter notes; mm=72, eighth notes; mm=60, triplets;, then mm=72 followed by mm=80. Add melodic and natural minors as well.

At the lower advanced levels, transition to sixteenth notes at mm=72.

It isn't until the last of the high school levels that they require contrary motion scales.

There is no requirement, which I can see, for 3rds, 6ths, etc. but the tempos do increase incrementally to mm=132 in the college levels.

I did a scale challenge project with my studio last summer with fabulous results. The goal for the end of the summer was for all the students level 3 and up to have at least one scale, HT, 4 octaves in 16ths with a minimum tempo of quarter = 60.

All of them met the goal, most exceeded it both in tempo and number of scales. I let the students choose which scales they wanted to do.

I use California Certificate of Merit as a guideline, but I almost never start with C major. I usually start with Db, F# and B because they are the easiest fingerings to coordinate and make putting the thumb under simple. Once they have learned these three, I work backwards through the sharp side of the circle (E, A, D, G, then C). Then I start working the flat side of the circle with F, Bb, Eb, Ab.

The minors are a little more random. I usually teach them from the parallel minor viewpoint, but not always.

That's a bit on the slow end, don't you think?

The teacher who made me play all the scales just went with whatever the order the scales were in Hanon. I learned nothing. I wasn't even very good at following the fingering.

Yes, but it quickly moves up to mm=120. Which is still quite leisurely, IMO, but remember, 95% of American teachers cannot play, let along teach, scales to any extent.

And you know this how?

Why teach scales?

For me it's so a student knows the sharps and flats of the key in their fingertips, and can therefore play in those keys. So they learn C, one sharp, one flat, etc. Plus the relative minors. While I might explain about the different minors, I find this leads mostly to confusion, and more is gained by having them play just harmonic until they are dissatisfied with this.

B and Db major first. I teach by chunking.
Thumb on white notes, then the following blacks notes as one.
So for B the thumb is on B and E, for Db the thumb is on C and F.
I've found this method to be so efficient that I utilize on on most of the other scales.
I teach C major last.

Maybe the number came from that poll of 20 teachers where only 1 had heard of Penelope Roskell. At least, the math would work out correctly. Can't find the reference though.

Besides being a mind reader????? It's a WAG based on conversations with teachers over the past 4 decades. I might be erring on the high side.