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Happy New Year and best wishes in this year of Snake.
Regards Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.
Regarding post #2013439
Fourths: A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps B3-E4: Slow, 1bps From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.
Thirds: A3-C#4: OK A#3-D4: Slow B3-D#4: fast C4-E4: Ok C#4-F4: Fast D4-F#4: slow D#4-G4: br same as previous interval E4-G#4: Ok F4-A4: Ok
Fifths: A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider A#3-F4: near perfect fifth B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4 B3-F#4: fast C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive C#4-G#4: OK D4-A4: ok
Thanks
Best wishes for new year. Kung Hei Fat Choi æ å–œ 發 財
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps (yes) A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps (yes) B3-E4: Slow, 1bps (please note, this is slower than A3-D4) From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow. (C#4-F#4 is much faster than C4-F4, E4-A4 is much faster than D#4-G#4)
A3-C#4: OK (yes) A#3-D4: Slow (yes) B3-D#4: fast (yes) C4-E4: Ok (this is sweet/slow - it sounds sweeter than A3-C#4 C#4-F4: Fast (yes, very much) D4-F#4: slow (yes, sloweer than C#4-F4, but quite Ok) D#4-G4: br same as previous interval (yes, quite Ok) E4-G#4: Ok (Ok) F4-A4: Ok (sweeter than E4-G#4)
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider (E4 should go "a hair" up, you also improve C4-E4 and E4-A4) A#3-F4: near perfect fifth (yes, near perfect, this is how 5ths should sound; this one is quite good) B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4 (please, double check, this is quite good, perhaps B3 can go up a bit, as E4) C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive (please, double check, almost 2 bps, C4 can go down a bit?) C#4-G#4: OK (check, slower than C4-G4 but too narrow - G#4 can go up a bit?) D4-A4: ok (too much movement, too narrow, this really must be "near perfect")
- . - . - . -
Very good, Weiyan. Now, in general, we will remember that "progressive" must be "smooth", and chromatic intervals "progress" differently. The beat rate of chromatic Thirds, for example, accelerate sensibly between F3-A3 and C4-E4.
And now, if you like, we can also address wider intervals, like 6ths, octaves, 10ths and 12ths. Be confident, your ear can "read" beats very well, and you want to refine your "eye" for drawing a wider beat-map and correct consequently. So doing we will temper the form.
Next:
Originally Posted by Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013 A3-C#5 OK A#3-D4 OK B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow C#4-F4 fast D4-F#4 ok E4-g#4 fast F4-A4 ok
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013 A3-D4 ok A#3-D#4 little bit slow B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording C#4-F#4 OK D4-G4 OK D#4-G#4 slow E4-A4 ok
The octave is Ok; A3-E4: almost 1 bps, can be closer to just; if possible, record longer (for both of us and others), double the time; lower partials are louder and here they are slower than high partials (3 bps, like E4-A4); A3-D4: too just, no beat D4-A4: inverted? Double check, always;
A3-C#4 OK (yes) A#3-D4 OK (slower than A3-C#4, I know you can hear that) B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval (yes) C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually it's too slow (yes, a bit sweet) C#4-F4 fast (yes, fast-Ok) D4-F#4 ok (yes)
A3-D4 ok (too just) A#3-D#4 little bit slow (too just, like A3-D4) B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow (yes, no beat as above) C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording (well done) C#4-F#4 OK (slow, make it a little bit faster than 1 bps) D4-G4 OK (slow) D#4-G#4 slow (better than D4-G4) E4-A4 ok (yes)
A3-E4, refer to base (commented yesterday) A#3-F4 OK (yes, F4 down a bit, as you did, all these fifth must "breathe") B3-F#4 OK (as above, a hair too just) C4-G4 fast (please, record fifths for longer time, 4 secs each) C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave????? (yes, it beats about 2 bps) D4-A4 OK (see previous post)
- . - . - . -
Few words, in general: be strict with the base, if you tune A3-E4 too narrow and A3-D4 too just... you cannot use two main references; beyond that, you are doing great and you are able to compare beats, even for "insidious" intervals.
On this, I suggest you to expand beyond the first 13 notes span, without expecting some "static perfection". On purpose, evaluate and make use of some approximations (on the "higher" side) - no more than what you can trace - and move up towards the trebles, double checking also the notes you have just tuned. Stay a little bit (a hair) higher, and remember that.. especially between C4 and C6 the pitch will more likely go down/flat.
Once you have tuned a larger span, you will be able to evaluate more easily how beats progress and their coherence, by checking intervals like chromatic 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths. More intervals make the beat-map more complex, and this is why I suggest you to exercise and refine your "wider" eye, try to visualize the beat-geometry in your mind.
I do not think a set of sounds can be "transferred" on a piano like if it was a decal (decalcomania), simply because the piano's structure and the strings are continuously moving, say "adjusting" in force of new tensions and loadings (and playing), especially during the act of tuning. I think I am dealing more with a dynamic phenomenon, with a growing form, something that is "becoming" under my eyes. I prefer to consider all the "adjustments" (that are going to take place) as part of a game… "who will have the last word" over the form?
Regards, a.c.
Last edited by alfredo capurso; 02/21/1308:22 AM. Reason: spelling
Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.
This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Self critic: Base A3-A4 two narrow. A3-E4: OK E4-A4: slow A3-D4: OK D4-E4: fast
Fourths: A3-D4: OK A#3-D#4: OK B3-E4: Slow C4-F4: OK (begin to progressive, considered slow) C#4-F#4: OK D4-G4: fast D#4-G#4: fast Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast. E4-A4: OK(compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps)
fifths A3-E4: OK A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive B3-F#4: OK C4-G4: OK C#4-G#4: OK D3-A4: fast
Overall impression: This is more likely a stander ET than C.HA.S.
Regards, Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re-arrange the tuning sequence. Tune temperament from F3-A4. Firstly, A3->E4, A3->D4, then E4->B3, Tune the F temperament. Then tune the octave, align fifths to regressive br after A3-E4. I found F temperament is easier to tune. The strings in F temperament is longer so have larger hammer movement.
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.
This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.
Below your "self critic" and my comments (between brackets):
Self critic: Base A3-A4 two narrow. (yes) A3-E4: OK (yes, try to make it closer to just) E4-A4: slow (yes) A3-D4: OK (slow, try to make it wider, 1 bps) D4-A4: fast (yes)
Fourths: A3-D4: OK (slow, see base) A#3-D#4: OK (slow) B3-E4: Slow (yes) C4-F4: OK, begin to progressive, considered slow; (OK) C#4-F#4: OK (slow) D4-G4: fast (yes) D#4-G#4: fast (yes) Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast. E4-A4: OK, compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps; (slow, next time go for 2.5 bps)
fifths A3-E4: OK (play/record fifths for longer... easier to evaluate, fifths must breathe, no real beating) A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive (correct) B3-F#4: OK (too just, no breathing) C4-G4: OK (fast, beating) C#4-G#4: OK (as above) D4-A4: fast (better than C4-G4 and C#4-G#4)
- . - . - . -
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:
A3-C#4: OK A#3-D4: slow, near perfect B3-D#4: same as above C4-E4: fast C#4-E#4: slow D4-F#4: slow D#4-G4: fast. E4-G#4: slow F4-A4; slow
There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?
Regards, Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Weivan, I am sorry to interfere in your discussion, but let me suggest that you need to master the tuning pin better, (work your unisons more).
I suspect that what you record and what you tuned may differ as you are not setting the pin well enough (so the wire and the pin may move immediately, and you record something different from your initial intention)
Learn first to set the pin really firmly and precisely, even on a not perfect unison aint the problem.
You must be able to bump on the hammer handle, relatively firmly) and have the note spring back exactly where it was (or eventually not move at all).
I see you feel some pin setting , but it is not well related to the wire work.
ALl the best. You seem to progress on intervals anyway...
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
1. Use new hammer skill. Fast stroke and listen to attack. Push the lever until it has high friction. Then play again to evaluate beat rate with emphasis to attack. If not satisfy re-do the process.
2. Fourths have faster br.
3. Tune A3 from A4, not care the width of the octave. Correct A4 after finishing the intervals.
4. Follow the C.HA.S procedure, A3-A4 temperament. Then tune octaves down to F3. Evaluate beat rates of F temperament and make adjustment.
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)
The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.
My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.
That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one
Last edited by Olek; 03/05/1306:59 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)
The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.
My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.
That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one
Compare the base with last tuning, latest one is cleaner. Not sure this is due to firmer pin setting or better interval.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Some words about hammering. When push the lever to a high friction point, evaluate the br. Then push with added force again, the pin may turn, or have crack sound. But the br change is none to little. The sound quality is cleaner. In some case the br change drastically need to retune.
Thank you Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
A3-C#4: OK A#3-D4: slow, near perfect B3-D#4: same as above C4-E4: fast C#4-E#4: slow D4-F#4: slow D#4-G4: fast. E4-G#4: slow F4-A4; slow
There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?
Regards, Weiyan
Hi Weiyan,
Following yours, my comment (between brackets):
A3-C#4: OK (fast) A#3-D4: slow, near perfect (slow, about 5 bps) B3-D#4: same as above (faster than A#3-D4, about 7 bps) C4-E4: fast (a hair sweeter/slower than B3-D#4) C#4-E#4: slow (yes) D4-F#4: slow (OK!) D#4-G4: fast (sweet/slow) E4-G#4: slow (yes) F4-A4; slow (yes)
- . - . - . -
..."There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?"...
Yes, in a way. In fact if three thirds, f.e. A3-C#4-F4-A4 were "just", we would get a very narrow octave. In this sense, a narrow octave may induce and push you towards slow thirds; in other words, any wrong octave will either crush or over-stretch other intervals. And this works also the other way around, any wrong interval may cause a wrong octave. You understand that our tuning form is inter-related in absolute terms.
Tomorrow we will check your latest recordings and will deepen on sequence and hammer/pin control.
The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:
Originally Posted by Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.
The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.
Regards, Weiyan
First, you flatten A3... good; - then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good; - then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);
(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;
at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat; at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time; at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*); at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...
In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;
while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge; the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.
A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)
You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise; at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise"; at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good; at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin; between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.
Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.
Hello all nice description on the moves, Weyan, I am too lazy to do such work , but this is very important, and I don t see how tuning learning could be better controled (without being on site)
It is amazing how we can understand what is going on, just by looking and listening, while not tuning ourselves...
About control, would not it be easier if Weiyan recorded the 5th abd 4 th cycles of the temperament ? I suggest we tend to leave some intervals larger. I know for instance I had problems with g5 for a long time, just an ear sensitivity question probably.
On all 4th and 5th temperaments I find differences depending of the tuner or the sequence, I was not able to investigate a lot but this was evident.
Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.
But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)
Greetings
Last edited by Olek; 03/10/1310:21 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.
But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)
Greetings
There is a reason for colleagues not speaking of tuning techniques, styles, etc.
Whenever anybody has mentioned anything remotely about tuning in this forum, take a close look at your reply.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
