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#2033226 - 02/14/13 07:34 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Question to You James, just because You are the right person in the universe to be asked. You could have played probably both the RM3 Grand II and the GF keyboard enough (as no second one here in the forum) to build a subjective opinion how they compare.

My question: while the VPC is a very nice package with a nice design and maintaining some portability, could it offer even some playability advantages over the GF which has significantly longer keys (and therefore haevier too)? Or is GF as the flagship KAWAI action was just superior in every regards to playability.

(As a hint: theoretically could smaller keys bring some repetition benefits, could react agiler, more responsive, etc.)

??? - Thx.

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#2033241 - 02/14/13 07:57 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]  
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Originally Posted by Temperament
Question to You James, just because You are the right person in the universe to be asked. You could have played probably both the RM3 Grand II and the GF keyboard enough (as no second one here in the forum) to build a subjective opinion how they compare.

My question: while the VPC is a very nice package with a nice design and maintaining some portability, could it offer even some playability advantages over the GF which has significantly longer keys (and therefore haevier too)? Or is GF as the flagship KAWAI action was just superior in every regards to playability.

(As a hint: theoretically could smaller keys bring some repetition benefits, could react agiler, more responsive, etc.)

??? - Thx.


I can help you here. The answer is "no!". Longer keys are better. They have to get pretty darn long before their inertia becomes a disadvantage. The advantage of longer keys is that the touch at different points along the key is more uniform. All things being equal, the GF is definitely better.

#2033313 - 02/14/13 10:02 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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I suspect GF keys are not heavier. I'm sure the weights in RM3 are such that the rotational inertia is the same as it is in GF. At least, near the edge of the key. Near the back of the key there will be less mechanical advantage in RM3, making it relatively harder to press. That's the theory, at least. I can's say how the two compare when playing because I haven't been able to do the comparison.

#2033549 - 02/15/13 07:53 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: gvfarns]  
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Thank for Your answers, yes, it is what theory is saying.

But the behavior can be tuned very efficiently by placing sensors, the attached hammer mechanic, etc. And even the sensor arrangement and software tuning can result perhaps in a more playable configuration. (Like velocity curves can make a keyboard to feel heavier or lighter.)

So the ??? to James remains open:
Originally Posted by Ando
All things being equal (???), the GF is definitely better

Last edited by Temperament; 02/16/13 04:29 AM.
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#2035957 - 02/19/13 05:05 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Anyone else ordered the VPC ?? It seems to be coming sooner than I thought - perhaps next week already.

Question that perhaps has been answered already (but couldn't find it):

- apart from the third sensor , are there any other changes / improvements made to RM3-II vs original RM3 ?
- has anyone been able to seriously compare both GF and RM3-II actions back to back and an opinion on the differences in touch&feel ? Perhaps at NAMM

#2035962 - 02/19/13 05:14 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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As was stated by James here on this thread, there's no change in RM3-II vs RM3 except for the added third sensor and slightly reinforced structure. Not sure if he used that exact word "reinforced" but I got the feeling this wasn't something which can affect the feel, so the basic feel is exactly the same. What could be expected is better repeat detection and possibly a slightly higher durability of the keyboard action.


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#2036082 - 02/19/13 09:29 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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CyberGene, you are correct. The 'feel' of the 'RM3 Grand II' action should be the same as that of the original 'RM3 Grand' action. However, responsiveness and repetition speed will be improved due to the third sensor.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2036484 - 02/20/13 03:56 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Happy Birthday James!

#2036503 - 02/20/13 04:51 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Hip hip hooray ! And treat yourself with a nice new VPC (or have your Kawai colleagues buy you one as a birthday present ;-)

Cheers !

(Sorry missed the birthday cake icon the first time...)

#2036590 - 02/20/13 07:46 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Thanks guys! wink

Originally Posted by JFP
And treat yourself with a nice new VPCElectro 4


Fixed. wink

Originally Posted by JFP
(or have your Kawai colleagues buy you one as a birthday present ;-)


+1

Well, fingers crossed this model will be introduced in Japan soon, and I can finally take advantage of my special employee discount. wink

Cheers,
James
x



Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2044838 - 03/08/13 12:56 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Was just reading that Kawai has no plans to bring the VPC-1 to Australia. frown Nice one, Kawai.

I don't understand these sorts of decisions. Surely they could at least make it available at Kawai dealers for those who want to special order it. We can try the same action in other Kawai models, so it's a known quantity that way. The sounds are made by software. So there's no reason to stock and display it. Would cost Kawai nothing to allow people to place an order. Strange...

#2044846 - 03/08/13 01:31 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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That sucks. Sorry to hear it.

I think it's a decision of the Kawai subsidiary. At least, when we don't get cool Kawai models in the US it's Kawai US (located in California) that's to blame, not the guys in Japan. Of course, the buck stops on the brand name.

Last edited by gvfarns; 03/08/13 01:34 AM.
#2044849 - 03/08/13 01:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando
Was just reading that Kawai has no plans to bring the VPC-1 to Australia. frown Nice one, Kawai.


Please note that Kawai Australia decides which models to introduce into the Australasian market. However, it's possible that this position may change in the future.

For what it's worth, Kawai Japan's own domestic sales division also opted not to market the VPC1 over here ("where's the Demo button?" etc.). However, after a very positive launch at NAMM, along with coverage in Japanese musical instrument press, and even orders from Japanese consumers purchasing the board from the US and Europe, it appears that their position is gradually evolving. I expect the same thing will happen with Kawai Australia.

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2044893 - 03/08/13 05:19 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
[quote=ando]"where's the Demo button?"


Naaa... frown
I would prefer that the "demo" ROM space was dedicated to better samples!


GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m
#2044900 - 03/08/13 05:39 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...For what it's worth, Kawai Japan's own domestic sales division also opted not to market the VPC1 over here ("where's the Demo button?" etc.)...


Why do people insist on trying to create something into something else? The VPC is what it is. It's what people like me want to buy. If they want a demo button, they got plenty to choose from.

But then. If salesmen and business men were smarter. They would be working in research and development.



Ron
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#2044910 - 03/08/13 06:27 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Don't underestimate the smarts of businessmen. The talented ones know the business, know the market, and know how to make the business profitable.

If the R&D guys were smart, they'd work in the business ... and make piles more money.

#2044920 - 03/08/13 07:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

For what it's worth, Kawai Japan's own domestic sales division also opted not to market the VPC1 over here ("where's the Demo button?" etc.).

No 'Concert Magic' button either!

I had been wondering exactly where the demand for that particular 'feature' came from (and why it gets a dedicated button on the lower-end Kawai pianos!), and furthermore why many pianos (of all brands) have a dedicated button for 'Demo', but important functionality often requires complicated multiple/simultaneous presses of buttons and keys etc

Now I guess I have the answer to both questions!

#2044934 - 03/08/13 08:45 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: abitconfused]  
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Originally Posted by Qbert

I would prefer that the "demo" ROM space was dedicated to better samples!

The "space" for a demo doesn't bother me, it's just a tiny MIDI file. But...
Originally Posted by abitconfused
I had been wondering exactly where the demand for that particular 'feature' came from (and why it gets a dedicated button on the lower-end Kawai pianos!), and furthermore why many pianos (of all brands) have a dedicated button for 'Demo', but important functionality often requires complicated multiple/simultaneous presses of buttons and keys etc

That is what bugs me on some models. The demo function should be the thing that requires a more complicated keypress (there could be a sticker with directions for showroom use), and the simple press should be available for some otherwise awkward/missing function that is actually more useful once you own the thing.

#2044935 - 03/08/13 08:51 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Sh***t; it has no demo button ?!!! I must be fast to cancel my order then ; can't live without that essential feature - I must have overlooked that.

Shame, what I am gonna do now ??? Perhaps wait for the VPC2 with added Mod/pitch wheels, renewed music stand, OSX support and... demo function ;-)

Or an MP10 - oh no; it has no 3rd sensor and same music stand

Or a PX5S - oh no ; no music stand at all and is where a demo button ??

Or an FP7F Black; damn - it's sold out !

Or ...or......OK , I'll just wait for my VPC then and see if I can live without demo's. Hope so...(no demo button, what we're they thinking!)

Last edited by JFP; 03/08/13 08:52 AM.
#2045475 - 03/09/13 12:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Yesterday I had the chance to play the VPC1 in a music store in Hamburg. I think it's absolutely awesome for the price. Very good action and nice and solid looking too.

They had a MP10 as well. Both actions felt identical to me. However, improved repetition is noticeable in case of the VPC1. So if your local store does not have one to try you'll be save if you like the MP10 including a little extra room regarding repetition.

The store had only Alicia Keys and The Grand installed on their Mac. Can't wait to get it on stage with Vintage D which I prefer :-)

Thomas

Last edited by Thomas B; 03/09/13 12:31 PM.
#2045526 - 03/09/13 03:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Thomas B]  
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Originally Posted by Thomas B
Yesterday I had the chance to play the VPC1 in a music store in Hamburg. I think it's absolutely awesome for the price. Very good action and nice and solid looking too.

They had a MP10 as well. Both actions felt identical to me. However, improved repetition is noticeable in case of the VPC1. So if your local store does not have one to try you'll be save if you like the MP10 including a little extra room regarding repetition.
Thomas
Could you compare it to the GF action (CA95/65) as well? Thx


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#2045589 - 03/09/13 06:28 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]  
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Originally Posted by Temperament
Originally Posted by Thomas B
Yesterday I had the chance to play the VPC1 in a music store in Hamburg. I think it's absolutely awesome for the price. Very good action and nice and solid looking too.

They had a MP10 as well. Both actions felt identical to me. However, improved repetition is noticeable in case of the VPC1. So if your local store does not have one to try you'll be save if you like the MP10 including a little extra room regarding repetition.
Thomas
Could you compare it to the GF action (CA95/65) as well? Thx

Only played few notes on it, as I'm not interested in the "classic" digital piano stuff. It's different and feels a little bit more like a real grand, but at least for my playing capabilities neither GF nor RM 3 II would pose a limit - for me the difference was really small.

Thomas

#2045871 - 03/10/13 11:07 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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As one possible advantage of the VPC1 as a MIDI controller over the CA pedal system was discussed, that continuos pedal response of VPC1 is hopefully more evenly distributed throughout the whole travelling distance of the pedal than with the CAs is the case. (On the CAs only some 24 neighbouring pedal positions fire all of the possible pedal velocity values within a narrow travelling interval - as described here:Continous HalfPedalling issues with CAxx + SW-Pianos
(To be sure: There is NO issue with the CA-s themselves, because they are optimised to work properly with this behaviour of their own pedal system, but the attached SW Instruments are not.)

Some thoughts/information (James?)
Thx.

#2050977 - 03/19/13 04:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Hey, here's a question for anyone who owns a VPC1 (and hopefully Kawai James!). Does your damper pedal send "progressive" MIDI information? Because mine sure doesn't!!! Tried in two different DAW's and the pedal is only sending on or off messages - so no half pedalling! Also it sort of grinds, while the other pedals are smooth. Sound faulty? Finally, there's a slight manufacturing defect - the plate below the keyboard is very slightly warped in the middle (looks like a small dent) and not quite flush underneath. It's no biggie, but you know how these things bug you when you've spent that kind of money (and then there's re-sale value). And none of the pictures of the VPC1 I've been drooling over ever had a dent on the front! So Kawai James, can the front plate be replaced? It looks like it should unscrew and just come away. Otherwise I've got to ship it back to Germany (assuming they will do the decent thing and replace it).

Appreciate any thoughts guys.

Shooby

#2051012 - 03/19/13 05:55 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Hello Shooby,

Originally Posted by Shooby
Does your damper pedal send "progressive" MIDI information? Because mine sure doesn't!!! Tried in two different DAW's and the pedal is only sending on or off messages - so no half pedalling!


Yes, the F-30's damper pedal is progressive - I believe it sends values in 25 steps. To test this, you may wish to try a MIDI diagnostics tool (the I/O panel in Pianoteq works well), press the damper pedal, then monitor the different values that are sent.

If your F-30's damper pedal is only sending two values (i.e. on/off), the unit is probably defective and should be replaced.

Originally Posted by Shooby
Also it sort of grinds, while the other pedals are smooth. Sound faulty?


All the pedals should feel the same. If one is 'grinding' when pressed, it's very likely there's a defect inside the unit and should therefore be replaced.

Originally Posted by Shooby
Finally, there's a slight manufacturing defect - the plate below the keyboard is very slightly warped in the middle (looks like a small dent) and not quite flush underneath.


Ah, that sounds like shipping damage - it may even be related to the faulty pedal unit.

Originally Posted by Shooby
So Kawai James, can the front plate be replaced?


It may be possible, however my recommendation would be to contact the dealer from where the VPC1 was purchased and allow them to resolve the issue. You may also wish to contact Kawai Europe directly.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2051384 - 03/20/13 01:45 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Thanks for your input James, I'll get back in touch with the supplier.

Cheers,

Shooby

#2051725 - 03/21/13 03:15 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
... the unit is probably defective and should be replaced.

Originally Posted by Shooby
Also it sort of grinds, while the other pedals are smooth. Sound faulty?


All the pedals should feel the same. If one is 'grinding' when pressed, it's very likely there's a defect inside the unit and should therefore be replaced.

Originally Posted by Shooby
Finally, there's a slight manufacturing defect - the plate below the keyboard is very slightly warped in the middle (looks like a small dent) and not quite flush underneath.


Ah, that sounds like shipping damage - it may even be related to the faulty pedal unit.



sick

If this controller, like the other RM containing models before it, is so incredibly fragile and can be so easily damaged when on its maiden voyage in a carefully packed, original, factory-sealed and insulated shipping carton, how on earth are people reasonably expected to safely transport them from one location to another, let alone expect to use them as gigging instruments?

#2051730 - 03/21/13 03:50 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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Originally Posted by theJourney
sick

If this controller, like the other RM containing models before it, is so incredibly fragile and can be so easily damaged when on its maiden voyage in a carefully packed, original, factory-sealed and insulated shipping carton, how on earth are people reasonably expected to safely transport them from one location to another, let alone expect to use them as gigging instruments?


I don't believe international shipping is directly comparable to taking your board along to a gig.

Cheers,
James
x


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#2051739 - 03/21/13 04:36 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]  
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...unless you gig inside a 40ft. container with tons of goods in it, what should be more or less as follows:
-Factory/depot
-Caterpilar to a container
-Lorry
-Crane
-Harbour (sometimes containers are re-situated, so count another posible truck/crane movement)
Containers are usually placed in 4 height piles, and it's very likely that some blow happens when lifted from/onto trucks. If goods are not perfectly filling the container, they'll move and collide each other.
Now, let's multiply this journey as many times as existing distributors, and add a constant named beer...


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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#2052233 - 03/22/13 01:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I don't believe international shipping is directly comparable to taking your board along to a gig.


That's exactly the point I am trying to make.

International shipping takes place under tightly controlled, contractually enforced conditions in packaging that has been designed and manufactured by the digital piano manufacturer to ensure that instruments arrive in undamaged and correct working order.

On a gig, an instrument may be transported in various bags, without shipping braces around moving parts, 5 times a week instead of just once off, etc.

It is telling that there are umpteen threads about damaged Kawai dps yet close to none on Korg, Yamaha, Nord, or Roland.

That is a significant observation.

If the Kawai dps are so fragile that they can't even by packaged properly for transport by Kawai themselves, then they are certainly too fragile to be reliable gigging instruments.

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