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#2147765 - 09/10/13 05:09 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I should say -- I'm comfortable with multiple topics of discussion going on at once. But if others participating find that too confusing and want to propose a more linear way of proceeding that would work better for you, I'm fine with that too.

I'm not quite sure we can be completely linear, given the nature of internet discussion among multiple people on a broad topic without a designated leader. What I'm thinking of here is if people want to finish talking about structure and harmony before starting to talk about interpretation, or if we can have all three going on at once. Or maybe (Polyphonist what do you think) -- does interpretation make sense to talk about before structure and harmony are fully in hand?

Last edited by PianoStudent88; 09/10/13 05:12 PM. Reason: added some more

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#2147766 - 09/10/13 05:11 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
I find that in this thread, the theory aspect is going fine, considering that there is not a ton of knowledge here. What is lacking here is the interpretation side of it, and I wish you would talk more about that, it after all being the most important thing to understand about any piece of music.

I missed this last part of your post -- not sure if I just read too fast, or did it appear while I was typing my first reply?

We're using this thread to fill in our theory knowledge as best we can (and any other knowledge, e.g. how to think about interpretation). We can only do our best with what we know, sharing to bring us all forwards, knowing that there is always more that could be discovered about a piece of music. What would you like to add for theory?

Would you like to get us started with the interpretation side? Perhaps throw out some questions for us to consider? Or an initial statement for us to reflect on?

Wow, we're posting past each other a mile a minute. laugh

I'm not complaining about the theory element; that's going fine. About interpretation: how about identifying what you think is the climax of the movement? We can start there. smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147769 - 09/10/13 05:13 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I should say -- I'm comfortable with multiple topics of discussion going on at once. But if others participating find that too confusing and want to propose a more linear way of proceeding that would work better for you, I'm fine with that too.

I'm fine with multiple topics as well, as long as we can discuss them all coherently at once. grin

And I think you might have missed one or two of my posts in the confusion, one of which I think you'll find helpful, so you might want to go back and check. smile

Edit: And yes, to the part of your post that you added after I had already posted this.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147770 - 09/10/13 05:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I cross-posted several posts. I think I've reached a point where I need to do more listening and working with the score at the piano before I can answer any of your latest questions. Also I'll go back and reread everything from before the spate of posts started to be sure I got it all.

I'm very excited: two N6 in the same piece! smile

Last edited by PianoStudent88; 09/10/13 05:15 PM. Reason: yet another cross-post!

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#2147775 - 09/10/13 05:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I cross-posted several posts. I think I've reached a point where I need to do more listening and working with the score at the piano before I can answer any of your latest questions. Also I'll go back and reread everything from before the spate of posts started to be sure I got it all.

I'm very excited: two N6 in the same piece! smile

All right, happy listening. smile

...[end cross-posting episode.] grin


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147780 - 09/10/13 05:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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First discovery on re-reading closely: there are not 2, but 3 N6 in the movement! Oh happy day! smile


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#2147791 - 09/10/13 05:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
First discovery on re-reading closely: there are not 2, but 3 N6 in the movement! Oh happy day! smile

What do you think about the question I asked at the end of that post?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147798 - 09/10/13 05:42 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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[Pokes thread cautiously to see if a cross-post is lurking...]

About reducing to three notes? I have to get back to the score and piano and think about it. Ditto to your question about where is the climax.


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#2147804 - 09/10/13 05:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
[Pokes thread cautiously to see if a cross-post is lurking...]

About reducing to three notes? I have to get back to the score and piano and think about it. Ditto to your question about where is the climax.

No cross-post lurking, I was busy. laugh

Well, I'm interested to hear what you have to say, when you're finished analyzing. smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147855 - 09/10/13 07:48 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I'm just catching up.

An overview of where we are as a group (maybe):
In my earliest recent post, I tried to give a very rough idea of major areas in the music - the three "parts" - for anyone who is quite new to this. I gave where the melody/theme first comes in, and then where it comes in again in the last portion. My hope was that someone who is new to this might have at least one or two reference points. This was to get Valencia and others started in the basic part.

So that's done.

Richard gave chord groupings that work together and their roles, which fit with my key areas, which people can use in a basic way. Polyphonist has given cadences. All of this can be used as reference tools for working on the music.

I'd like to mention that music has three elements: harmony (mostly the chords), melody, and also rhythm or note values. Don't overlook the latter. When a rhythm changes, or how the music flows, all of these play a role. The three work together.
--------------------
2. There is a discussion on how to name chords, and choices.
We have three essential ways: letter names (i.e. G7), Roman Numerals (i.e. V7), or descriptions of function (Dominant 7; Neapolitan etc.). We should look at each of them.

Roman Numerals When you are in a key, and your chords belong to that key, then when you write I, IV, V, I, you can use that for any key. In simpler music those notes will tend to have certain functions such as V-I or I-V perfect and imperfect cadences. With V you know it's G in C major, Ab in Db major, A in D major. It's handy as an outline.

It starts getting tricky when music does less predictable things, when the chords are outside of the key - if you seem to be between keys.

letter names Here essentially you can write down what you see and here, in the sense that you don't have to worry whether that GBbD is Im (i) of G minor, IIIm (iii) of Eb major, an interesting colour in the key of G major. It's Gm - end of story.

More advanced people will try to reflect some of the other things that they hear or perceive in a chord. So in that D chord, (don't have the music in front of me), the way that "D chord" functions suggests a different chord which let people see that. But if you are starting out -- or if you just want to recognize that chord and trying to play it -- or if that interpretation is iffy --- just stay with the most obvious chord in front of your face. If you write "D" then it's not incorrect. It means there are two ways of seeing it.

"word" names i.e. Dominant, Neapolitan, German 6, Phrygian. These describe functions and systems.

For example, Ab C Eb Gb is an Ab7. If it occurs in Db major, and you go Ab7-Db, especially ending the music, then it has a very specific function. It is the "Dominant" chord, with root in the "Dominant" degree, and it is a "Dominant 7" which has a role of moving to the "Tonic" (the chord rooted in I or i which also gives us the tonality).

The "German 6" with root Ab will sound exactly the same, and you will use the same piano keys. But it will go to G instead of going to Db, and it will be spelled Ab C Eb F#. So this name describes that chord which has that function going in that direction.

It is faster to say "Dominant 7" than to say "chord in the 5th degree functioning as dominant (define dominant)...; or to say "German 6" than describing what it does. If these names complicate things or get in the way, then they're useless. Or - if the name boxes us into rules, and composers don't follow them.

----------------
We have at least two levels of conversation going on, and we'll need to shuttle back and forth. I'd say that the essential thing is to recognize the simple things. If there is D F# A, you should be able to recognize it as a D (major) chord. If you can also see it as having a special function, with an alternate name, then go for it. But if that confuses you, stay with the name you know for certain is there.

Would that work?

#2147889 - 09/10/13 09:00 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Discussing multiple topics is fine with me as is shuffling back and forth. Thanks everyone for this very interesting discussion from which I'm learning heaps! Some of it I don't quite follow but that is ok. Sorry I'm not posting much, mostly i'm trying to take in everything said. Tonight I'll try to go through some of the score to see if I can find the things mentioned so far in the posts.

#2147895 - 09/10/13 09:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Valencia]  
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Originally Posted by Valencia
Discussing multiple topics is fine with me as is shuffling back and forth. Thanks everyone for this very interesting discussion from which I'm learning heaps! Some of it I don't quite follow but that is ok. Sorry I'm not posting much, mostly i'm trying to take in everything said. Tonight I'll try to go through some of the score to see if I can find the things mentioned so far in the posts.

If you'd like, try your hand at some of the (challenging) questions I'll be posting. Some may be beyond you, but see what you can do. We welcome newcomers, and we don't care if you get it "right" or not - besides, many of the questions may not have right or wrong answers.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147896 - 09/10/13 09:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Valencia]  
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Originally Posted by Valencia
Discussing multiple topics is fine with me as is shuffling back and forth. Thanks everyone for this very interesting discussion from which I'm learning heaps! Some of it I don't quite follow but that is ok. Sorry I'm not posting much, mostly i'm trying to take in everything said. Tonight I'll try to go through some of the score to see if I can find the things mentioned so far in the posts.

Valencia, feel free with any questions you may have. this is truly multi-level because that is who we are here on the ABF. smile

#2147898 - 09/10/13 09:29 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Keystring, now that you're here, do you have an opinion on either of the questions I've put forward so far? smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147910 - 09/10/13 10:06 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Keystring, now that you're here, do you have an opinion on either of the questions I've put forward so far? smile

I hunted for questions and only found one - the one below. Is this one of them, and if so, what is the other? If not, what are the two?
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
By the way, at bar 50, PS88, you can see a Neapolitan 6th being substituted for the aurally more natural II chord, in a cadential pattern, as I mentioned before. The diminished third and its resolution to the unison provide that tension-release element again, that the plain II chord could not. At bar 39, the Neapolitan chord appears again briefly, although in this instance it serves more as a passing melody tone than as a real harmonic element. Speaking of this section (38-40), can you try and identify the real essence of the melody, pared down to a three-note progression? smile

#2147911 - 09/10/13 10:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Keystring, now that you're here, do you have an opinion on either of the questions I've put forward so far? smile

I hunted for questions and only found one - the one below. Is this one of them, and if so, what is the other? If not, what are the two?
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
By the way, at bar 50, PS88, you can see a Neapolitan 6th being substituted for the aurally more natural II chord, in a cadential pattern, as I mentioned before. The diminished third and its resolution to the unison provide that tension-release element again, that the plain II chord could not. At bar 39, the Neapolitan chord appears again briefly, although in this instance it serves more as a passing melody tone than as a real harmonic element. Speaking of this section (38-40), can you try and identify the real essence of the melody, pared down to a three-note progression? smile

This is one of them, and the other was in post #2147766 - what would you say is the climax of the movement?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147917 - 09/10/13 10:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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I will try. From M38-40.........(made a mistake see below)

And for the climax of the piece....hmm..I'm not sure. There seem to be three spots where the music may peak:
M27: The E
M35: the highest D#
And then M49: the E

but i don't know if any of those is the climax of the piece or if there can be more than one.

Last edited by Valencia; 09/10/13 10:26 PM.
#2147918 - 09/10/13 10:26 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Valencia]  
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oops i just realized that there was a change from the treble to bass cleff: so it would be D#, C# and B#?

#2147923 - 09/10/13 10:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Speaking of this section (38-40), can you try and identify the real essence of the melody, pared down to a three-note progression?

Are you talking about a "melody" that goes "D# C# B#" and then alters itself as "D C# B#"?
If so, I hear this. It stands out among all the other notes that are the same and it "says something". I'm not familiar with the expression "note progression" when talking about melody - only harmonic progression. I don't have words to describe what I hear: like a statement that gets a bit sadder or softer the second time, and then that B# that is held swoops in the A chord and we're into a new atmosphere. It's easy to play what one hears in the music - much harder to put into words (which is why we play, I'd say).

I tend to hear along melodies more than chords. Is there a "chord thing" that would indicate it as well?

#2147941 - 09/10/13 11:21 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist

This is one of them, and the other was in post #2147766 - what would you say is the climax of the movement?

Ok, I answered the first question, and then looked at this one. And then I was asking myself, what the sense is of these specific questions. Are they going somewhere? Why isolate two things like that? For this second one, I'm not sure that I want to isolate a single climax in this particular piece.

#2147946 - 09/10/13 11:31 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Valencia]  
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Originally Posted by Valencia
oops i just realized that there was a change from the treble to bass cleff: so it would be D#, C# and B#?
This is the same thing that keystring saw, which is indeed the melody, but not what I was thinking of. I am getting down even more to the essence than that - just a few of the notes of the melody. Namely, the D# in 38, the D natural in 39, and the C in 40. And that chromatic movement is the backbone of the entire passage - the melody is based off that motif, the accompaniment is based off the melody. Chopin uses these types of beautiful inner-voice chromatic motifs in his music, and I will point out some examples of that in a little while.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147948 - 09/10/13 11:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

This is one of them, and the other was in post #2147766 - what would you say is the climax of the movement?

Ok, I answered the first question, and then looked at this one. And then I was asking myself, what the sense is of these specific questions. Are they going somewhere? Why isolate two things like that? For this second one, I'm not sure that I want to isolate a single climax in this particular piece.

And you're absolutely right. I wouldn't isolate a climax either. grin

The question was meant to provoke some thought about the structure and emotional arc of the movement, but I didn't expect anyone to come up with a decisive answer, because there isn't one. smile If I had to specify a place, I'd say bars 35 and 36, because this seems to be the top of the arc, but there is no definitive answer. Sorry if I confused anyone. smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147950 - 09/10/13 11:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
And then I was asking myself, what the sense is of these specific questions. Are they going somewhere?

Well, if you'd like, I can take the 38-40 one a bit farther and give some similar examples from other works, unless you think that would derail the thread. (I don't think so, since it's related to our discussion of harmony/melody and the elements of music and so forth.)


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147959 - 09/11/13 12:09 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by keystring
And then I was asking myself, what the sense is of these specific questions. Are they going somewhere?

Well, if you'd like, I can take the 38-40 one a bit farther and give some similar examples from other works, unless you think that would derail the thread. (I don't think so, since it's related to our discussion of harmony/melody and the elements of music and so forth.)

If there are things that you are seeing in the piece, or things that you see in music in general, I would love to read about them.

I see what you are doing now. School was a long time ago, but I remember right up into university, the teacher or professor asks questions, the students answer, and then based on the answer he can continue teaching whatever he is leading to. The idea is, I think, to engage the students. Of course the answers they give have to help drive what he wants to teach forward - so as a student you try to figure out where the teacher is going with this, so that you can give the kind of answer he needs.

And that's where I was, at the piano, trying to find what it is that you were after so that you could bring it further, and then I thought "This is nuts." when I realized what I was doing. And that's when I posted here. For me personally, I'd be interested in what you wanted to bring out.

#2147966 - 09/11/13 12:19 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by keystring
And then I was asking myself, what the sense is of these specific questions. Are they going somewhere?

Well, if you'd like, I can take the 38-40 one a bit farther and give some similar examples from other works, unless you think that would derail the thread. (I don't think so, since it's related to our discussion of harmony/melody and the elements of music and so forth.)

If there are things that you are seeing in the piece, or things that you see in music in general, I would love to read about them.

I see what you are doing now. School was a long time ago, but I remember right up into university, the teacher or professor asks questions, the students answer, and then based on the answer he can continue teaching whatever he is leading to. The idea is, I think, to engage the students. Of course the answers they give have to help drive what he wants to teach forward - so as a student you try to figure out where the teacher is going with this, so that you can give the kind of answer he needs.

And that's where I was, at the piano, trying to find what it is that you were after so that you could bring it further, and then I thought "This is nuts." when I realized what I was doing. And that's when I posted here. For me personally, I'd be interested in what you wanted to bring out.

I was trying to raise awareness of inner voices, and especially inner voices in which the notes are extended over longer periods of time, as in this Beethoven passage. They are often neglected, since the farther the notes are apart, the harder it is to phrase them well. It's important, though, to notice these and bring them out, to remember that there can be multiple melodies within one set of notes.

On that note (no pun intended), I think it's time for my first example.

[Linked Image]

See if you can find those inner voices. (There are not one but two of them!) smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2147970 - 09/11/13 12:22 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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keystring, where would you put several climaxes (if you would)? Would you put in any climaxes at all?


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#2148009 - 09/11/13 02:38 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
keystring, where would you put several climaxes (if you would)? Would you put in any climaxes at all?

I haven't worked through the piece that way, but I have a feeling that there are different choices, and that it depends on what you do with the piece as a whole.

About the newest puzzle - I might see notes I'd want to emphasize and bring out, but I'd rather have more context. It's two measures which are coming from somewhere.

#2148015 - 09/11/13 03:11 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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btb Offline
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Pretoria South Africa
Inner voices

In the measures shown the voices are

Treble
A nat. and Bb

Bass (1st measure)
Gb . Gb ... to the first half measure
repeated ... to the 2nd half measure

Any notes highlighted by their extreme location
(in relation to the overall pattern of notes) can be
regarded as “exposed”.,, and therefore gain accent.
There are 4 Gb notes (exposed) in the first measure.

regards, btb

#2148019 - 09/11/13 03:21 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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dire tonic Online content
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I'd be going for the Db, D nat, Eb.

(they could be partnered with A nat, A nat, Bb which precede but it's a different effect)

#2148025 - 09/11/13 03:53 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
I'd be going for the Db, D nat, Eb.

A gradual chromatic ascent. Cool. smile

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