Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
107 registered members (Albunea, anotherscott, alfredo capurso, AndyP, 17curleyj, 36251, 27 invisible), 1,692 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#2043490 - 03/05/13 06:35 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Rickster]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 774
Ragdoll Offline
500 Post Club Member
Ragdoll  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 774
Illinois
Quote
Having been a member here for several years now, I've seen this topic come up several times. It can get heated, and tempers can flair (or is it flare? ).


I think both heh heh laugh


Ragdoll

At first, she only flew when she thought no one was watching.

[Linked Image]
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2043504 - 03/05/13 07:11 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
PianistInJapan Offline
Full Member
PianistInJapan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
Japan
Speaking of ETDs, does anyone have an opinion on this product?

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/piano_tuner_40.php


Kawai RX-2
Kawai PN390 digital
#2043538 - 03/05/13 08:21 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: PianistInJapan]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by PianistInJapan
Speaking of ETDs, does anyone have an opinion on this product?

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/piano_tuner_40.php


That it is not available on a pocket pc, Android, or iOS platform is a deal breaker. Totally impractical for a field technician, IMO.

#2043545 - 03/05/13 08:37 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: beethoven986]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
PianistInJapan Offline
Full Member
PianistInJapan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
Japan
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by PianistInJapan
Speaking of ETDs, does anyone have an opinion on this product?

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/piano_tuner_40.php


That it is not available on a pocket pc, Android, or iOS platform is a deal breaker. Totally impractical for a field technician, IMO.

That may be, but I was wondering about the technical aspect.

Their claim is that every type of piano needs a slightly different tuning due to differences in harmonics, and in order to make the tuning closest to optimal for a piano, they first measure the harmonics, before calculating the optimal tuning. This measurement is conducted only once and stored in a file, after which it is the base for all subsequent tunings.

They claim that this measurement phase is what distinguishes their software from others on the market.

I am a total novice, so it is hard to judge for me, but it does make sense. At the very least I got to realize that tuning a piano is actually a very complicated process.

Any tuners here who could comment on this software vs. what is already available?


Kawai RX-2
Kawai PN390 digital
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2043548 - 03/05/13 08:42 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: PianistInJapan]  
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Withindale  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
Try searching here for Dirk, it's been discussed before.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2043553 - 03/05/13 08:53 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,965
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,965
Georgia, USA
The Dirk software sounds a lot like TuneLabPro; even the graphics are similar.

I doubt if I will every tune pianos for pay, but if I did, I'd want the best tools on the market. Good techs use the best tools!

And, I wish I had the time to hang out with Sally Phillips at Columbus State University and watch her tune and critique those Steinways!! smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2043630 - 03/05/13 11:34 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,412
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member
daniokeeper  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,412
PA
I have a slightly different take on this...

The best tuner is the one that meets your specific needs.

Sometimes "adequate" can be best, when you consider the big picture... price, availability, personality, etc. (and not just regarding piano tuners smile )

I think the best strategy is to define exactly what your needs are. Then, look for a tuner-tech that can meet those specific needs. IMO smile

Last edited by daniokeeper; 03/06/13 12:02 AM. Reason: Too verbose... Over-argued my point

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
#2043706 - 03/06/13 02:37 AM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,200
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,200
Seattle, WA USA
ED FOOTE,
Thanks for quoting me. I did not mean for my post to be seen as contrary of yours. I was only trying to add my observations of how some machine tuners work and how the public reacts. The public sometimes does not react logically to tuning problems they encounter when assessing between machine and aural tuners. Your skills and protocols are of the highest professionalism, your clients are fortunate to have you.

The two issues I addressed regarding pitch drift and un-centered stretch curves are ignored by the marketers of tuning instruments when they tutor their customers. Pianists notice these things though in the conditions I listed and often blame the machine! The same problems can be produced by aural tuning alone yet pianists are likely to be more forgiving. Go figure how prejudices twist things!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2043733 - 03/06/13 03:40 AM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,949
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,949
Oakland
Another difference is that a top-notch tech will know which problems are due to the tuning and which are due to other causes. Machines do not know the difference.


Semipro Tech
#2043742 - 03/06/13 04:01 AM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Rickster]  
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Withindale  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
Originally Posted by Rickster
The Dirk software sounds a lot like TuneLabPro; even the graphics are similar.

When you look behind the screens I think you will find they differ. Dirk's tuner works as PianistinJapan says whereas the TuneLab Pro 4.0 manual describes inharmonicity curves and selecting 6:3 or 4:2 etc. during a tuning.

You can also use Dirk's tuner to assess the tuning of a piano. Play all the notes, compute the optimum, compare actual to optimum. This may be of more interest to owners than technicians.

Last edited by Withindale; 03/06/13 05:52 AM. Reason: Added assessment

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2043820 - 03/06/13 09:33 AM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 733
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member
BoseEric  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 733
Fairfield County, CT
An ETD is a tool. How well one uses it is a measure of craftsmanship.

An ETD will help a beginning tuners create better tunings earlier. In the hands of an experienced and serious tuner, they sharper tools of the craft. On an out of pitch piano, my final result will much more accurate and stable because I used the pitch-raise function of my Cybertuner.


Experienced tuners will silently affirm when I say you HAVE to use your ears. It's much easier than you think to find yourself tuning a chunk of the piano with your machine (computer) listening to the wrong partial!

#2044571 - 03/07/13 04:47 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
hoola Offline
Full Member
hoola  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
LA, USA
I had my piano tuned yesterday.

On the keys with 3 strings, I saw that tuner only used machine to tune the first string (the left one), then he used his ear to tune the middle and the right string using the left string as reference.

I asked him why he did not use machine to tune all 3 strings of the same key. He said that it's better to do 1st with machine, 2 others with ears. I don't fully understand his explanations (he's from Europe and has accents, and English is not my mother language)

Is his way is a good one?

Thanks.

#2044594 - 03/07/13 05:04 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,965
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,965
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by hoola
I had my piano tuned yesterday.

On the keys with 3 strings, I saw that tuner only used machine to tune the first string (the left one), then he used his ear to tune the middle and the right string using the left string as reference.

I asked him why he did not use machine to tune all 3 strings of the same key. He said that it's better to do 1st with machine, 2 others with ears. I don't fully understand his explanations (he's from Europe and has accents, and English is not my mother language)

Is his way is a good one?

Thanks.

No, it must not be a good technique... that is how I do it. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2044622 - 03/07/13 05:22 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Rickster]  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
hoola Offline
Full Member
hoola  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
LA, USA
I appreciate your sense of humour :), but I appreciate more if I can have more explanations, because it seems that it will be out-of-tune if he tuned all 3 strings of the same key with machine.

#2044641 - 03/07/13 05:57 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
hoola,

What the tuner did was a very good technique and used by lots of tuners. The machine is used to set the pitch, but the ear is more accurate for matching. There is much that a tuner listens to other than just the basic pitch. It takes a long time to develop that level of hearing.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2044651 - 03/07/13 06:08 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Withindale  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
hoola,

The first post in the following thread on unison tuning goes into detail:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1887457/Unison%20Tuning.html#Post1887457


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2044660 - 03/07/13 06:25 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Withindale]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Withindale
hoola,

The first post in the following thread on unison tuning goes into detail:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1887457/Unison%20Tuning.html#Post1887457


The first post in the above thread speaks about string coupling and the possibility of making adjustments to the temperament when tuning the 2nd/3rd string(s) of a unison. It is interesting to note that two very low notes on a pipe organ separated by a semitone, when played simultaneously, will often phase sync into a single pitch. It appears to be random, however, which pitch will result. The synced pitch will be either the lower or the upper note, not an intermediate pitch. Does this random pitch shift in string coupling occur in piano unisons. If so, how can one be sure that the temperament adjustment being made will be reproducible?

#2044666 - 03/07/13 06:31 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Withindale]  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
hoola Offline
Full Member
hoola  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 264
LA, USA
Thank you for the intimidating thread, it's like La Mecca of unison, and makes me sweat smile.

Note: However, my thank you is sincere.


#2044714 - 03/07/13 08:00 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Withindale]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Rickster
The Dirk software sounds a lot like TuneLabPro; even the graphics are similar.

When you look behind the screens I think you will find they differ. Dirk's tuner works as PianistinJapan says whereas the TuneLab Pro 4.0 manual describes inharmonicity curves and selecting 6:3 or 4:2 etc. during a tuning.

You can also use Dirk's tuner to assess the tuning of a piano. Play all the notes, compute the optimum, compare actual to optimum. This may be of more interest to owners than technicians.


I use Dirk's Piano Tuner. I am a pianist, not a technician. I only tune one piano. the software is truly amazing. I would highly recommend it for private use. You still need to learn how to set pins and tune unisons, but the calculated stretch is amazingly beautiful.

#2044721 - 03/07/13 08:14 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,180
peterws Offline
6000 Post Club Member
peterws  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,180
Northern England.
If a tuner creates flawless unisons, the moment he walks out of te door, is the moment they deteriorate. Not nice, but acceptable I guess.

As one who has tuned his own piano (Just one, might I add0 It is fun. Yes! You can achieve flawless unisons. Yes! You can achieve flawless octaves, beat perfect. And the top notes? OMG!! Stretch tuning. I did that. The piano sounded Good, to me and `er, who played Chopin (I was stuck on Beethoven (easy play)). . . . Until I played it! . . .but it was worth it. Wonderful memories of 30 years ago . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2044724 - 03/07/13 08:30 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: peterws]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 504
S. Phillips Offline
500 Post Club Member
S. Phillips  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 504
Columbus, GA
[quote=peterws]If a tuner creates flawless unisons, the moment he walks out of te door, is the moment they deteriorate. Not nice, but acceptable I guess.

That is the point of stabilizing the pin. The tuning won't move as soon as the tuner walks out the door.


Sally Phillips
Owner
Piano Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
www.pianoperfectllc.com
One can always find something to improve.
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
#2044819 - 03/07/13 11:25 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: hoola]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,200
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,200
Seattle, WA USA
I have seen situations in several markets where a Tech with a prestigious account does not provide the same level of service to customers of lesser musical professional status. Say for instance they service pianos for the resident professional orchestra part time and gain private clients who expect them to provide artist level services for them. For these clients they do a lower standard work and charge a premium price-then if the client complains they claim the same standard was applied to their piano that the touring pro's get-and the pro's are happy!

Conversely I have seen techs who haven't had a chance to have a top position who consistently turn out well serviced, voiced and stably tuned pianos for the "average" user.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2044820 - 03/07/13 11:27 PM Re: What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?` [Re: S. Phillips]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,677
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,677
Tennessee
Originally Posted by S. Phillips
[quote=peterws]If a tuner creates flawless unisons, the moment he walks out of te door, is the moment they deteriorate. Not nice, but acceptable I guess.

That is the point of stabilizing the pin. The tuning won't move as soon as the tuner walks out the door.


Yeah, what she said.

There is a point in the unison where the differences of the three strings is small enough so that the resulting note doesn't "move" which is often the only goal that circumstances warrant. There is often another point where the note blooms, signaling some mysterious alignment, that, though fragile, beckons with ineffable musical qualities. It is more than just a quiet unison, it is synergy made manifest.

Obviously, a pair of strings' behavior can be easily plotted, they approach unison and then depart and there is only one point of maximum agreement. This isn't the case with three strings, which offer the possibility of phases of phases. The three relate to one another in a wide variety of ways, leaving me to wonder if perhaps there is room for a fractal perspective on what the simple combinations of three frequencies is capable of producing.

By now, my best unisons come from a mindless approach. I don't think about the note, I don't think about my car, I don't think about getting old or needing a shoelace, or anything else. I just try to follow David Anderson's guidance to accept that I am a good tuner, and if I get totally in the moment with a piano, I will get a good tuning. So, I get a cleaner, more consistent result if I stop thinking about what I am hearing and instead, pay attention to what it feels like.
Regards,

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Line out jack or Headphone output?
by CMDVN. 05/27/17 05:09 PM
Grand piano on marble floor?
by B Man. 05/27/17 02:49 PM
Sheet music or fakebooks
by dat77. 05/27/17 01:50 PM
Line out jack or Headphone output?
by CMDVN. 05/27/17 01:39 PM
Roland FP-30 vs Kawai ES 110?
by CMDVN. 05/27/17 12:50 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,921
Posts2,630,359
Members87,901
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0