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Real close to closing this deal on a Bechstein B 1904. Already had a tech from that area take a look and he said it was OK but would like to know if anyone can take a look to the pics and let me know what you think.

Thanks in advanced for any info you can add.


Recent work done:
New hammers, strings, dampers, pins & pinblock. Soundboard & bridges are in good condition. Holds A440, and recent regulation,52-54grams

Have you actually heard the piano? Have them record (hopefully in HD) and post the video so you can watch with a good pair of high-quality earphones. Also, I'm not a tech but those hammers look really weird (shape, size), I don't think the hammers were replaced but merely re-felted. Did the tech mention anything substantial on his report, OK seems to be too generic, how much crown does the piano still have, what about the bridges, and again, make sure you like the sound of the instrument otherwise you won't wanna play it later.

Looking at the poor quality of the hammer job, I would be very cautious of the rest of the work performed.

yes I heard the piano and I like the sound but pianotune2's comment make's me wonder. The tech that looked at it pulled the action out and took these pics for me. He didnt give me detailed report. If the hammer work looks poor from the photos not sure its worth paying extra money to send another tech

Hi Miguel:
I'm not a professional tech, but I have to say I immediately thought those hammers looked really odd, too. I've never seen anything like those.

Steve, thought the same from my untrained eyes. If it is in fact a shotty job, what would the cost be to have them done correctly? Can always knock the cost down

New hammers, (poor job) old shanks, flanges and most likely knuckles. Without being able to see the knuckles, it's hard to say if they needed replacement or not.

I am curious about the comments regarding a poor hammer job. A less than perfect hammer line can be adjusted in a few minutes, (you need the proper tool) and some filing and traveling, if required, is also no big deal. I agree the hammers look re-felted, and look very much like the originals would have. On a piano such as this, proper re-felting can actually be preferable to replacement with generic hammers....
Granted, the shanks and everything else are original, but it looks like the knuckles are new, at least. I like the fact that the tied action was retained. It might be a decent piano, it is hard to tell from a few pictures.

Thanks supply. The dealer did state that all the work done was done in the UK and not by his store. I will discuss about the adjustment of the hammer line to see if they can include that in the cost.

Well, I can only speak for myself, and again I'm not a tech, so please feel free to educate me as we throw ideas, but if they're telling Miguel they REPLACED the hammers when in fact they RE-FELTED them, that's misguiding the consumer into thinking a deeper restoration level took place, and who knows what else? Also, the felts do not look good, they're not nice and compact like one would expect, they look 'thready' and 'puffy', will those fall apart after short few years of use? Or will the felt get compacted after so much use to a point that the sound will be completely different than what made Miguel fall in love with the piano in the first place? Maybe not, but who knows, should Miguel take a chance? From what he answered on the last post, it doesn't really look like a TECHNICAL review was done on the piano but a 'drive-by', why? I don't know, but when I got my report on my piano and all it said it was ok and good, I made the guy go back and get me some numbers, that's the only way to really develop an educated idea. Believe me, I get it, we find a piano and we think (and should) it's going to become our soul mate, and for whatever reason (financial in my case) we ignore all the red flags, until one day the honeymoon is over and the piano tech has a list of things that need to be repaired or fixed the size of the Sears towers. I'm not saying he should not acquire the piano, but if he does decide to, go into this deal consciously of the shortcomings, I said this before, I love my piano and with time will get it up to par, but for the meantime I still enjoy sitting down and playing it the way it is, Miguel should be able to enjoy the same.

Miguel, a really good thing for you to do is research about this model, see if you can find more pictures online, sound recordings, videos, prices, that should give you an idea of where this instrument stands, know everything about it because most likely the dealer won't be much help, I'm real sad to say this, but it feels like the music industry (in some places) has become parallel to the car industry, with individuals with little to no knowledge making ridicule claims (sometimes outrages) in order to make a sale.

Ask if the plate was cracked. Many Bechsteins crack where the treble plate strut passes over the open pin-block. It looks like the hammers have the shoulders narrowed like the originals would have been. This is good. They one view of the #1 hammer shank flange looks less than good-is it just some stain that blocks seeing the bushing cloth-or are all the action centers patched together? Ask the tech who inspected.
If it plays and sounds warm, full and singing it could be good for quite a few years but the price should be half of what one completely rebuilt to like new condition would be.

Agree 100% about music dealers. Regardless where I buy I will try and hedge my bet by getting the best possible deal knowing that somewhere down the line perhaps in the near to mid future that I will have to put some money into the instrument. I plan on playing a min of 7-10 hours per week and don't want to deal with anything major for at least a couple years or so.

I have done considerable research over the last few weeks (sounds like a short time but countless hours online into the wee hours of the morning) listening to every Bechstein Youtube vid out there and reading posts from all over. I was set to buy a Mason Hamlin until I wen to a recital and heard a old Becshtein and immediately fell in love with the sound.

I will check to see if the plate was cracked. What do you mean by the centers patched. Price is 10K. Cosmetically the case and keys are in very good shape

The bass wire winding is WAY too much on the bridge pins, for what I see there. That shows a mistike taking the measures or from the bass winder.

The rollers are probably taller by 0.5 mm from the original, due to the recess in the shank being less deep on Schwander actions.

(it does not look evident on the note number 1 but the drop screws are unscrewed to the max, that could mean the hammers are not thick enough or the knuckles are thicker, or both)

If the touch is correct, why not, the piano may need a little more key dip than originally. Look for excessive friction at letoff moment

The plate could have been cracked anr repaired/reinforced, without danger of future cracks, in my experience, but I cannot say much about the techniques used. A friend even soldered a plate with standard acetylene torch and the piano did not broke later.

But some break locations are really more difficult to repair.

The repair seem to have been done minimally, (almost cosmetically) but if it allows for a low priced piano why not.

It is not to be considered "rebuild", but to have a repair done so the piano is accepteable .

I would be very cautious about the shank pinning.

Refelting allow to avoid voicing, more or less, (and new leading of the keys) but the shape of the heads and their density is often not excellent (here they look like potatoes, the dynamics must be really small !)

Here is a hammer and shank change on a similar piano :

[video:youtube]JEjzqkTYkRE[/video]

I understand you as the tone of those old grands is really particular, but it must be optimized, you have usually some dynamics availeable (even if less than on more recnt grands indeed)

The soft hammers mounted (refelting can provide some density but not all refleters are having success at that, particularely on thin modlings)

If not the tone will be soft, very worm but with the Bechstin tone yet present. You may wish to test the lenght, thickness and the dynamics avaible, in the shop, and compare with what provide other pianos (even a vertical in good condition with provide a tone that is auto-alimented correctly)

With an instrument in good condition you may imagine some sort of "engine" that keep the tone thick during a few seconds, if the tone disspates in a straight slant and soon, leaving a thin tail, then no much dynamics is availeable.

If you trust the tone at all levels of plating then the piano is good (at last acoustically)

PS new shanks : new shanks mean new knuckles but mostly a pinning in perfect condition. pinning allow the tone to be cleaner and firmer.
New shanks will be a little more heavy, as new heads.
Those actions are fast, new parts are always a tad heavy on them.

The linked keys provide keys that tend to rebound under the finger, but zero friction between key and action (very direct feel)

The touch is not really standard, generally when rebuild the link is supressed and the action modified, generally for the slower and with more key dip. It can be done well, or it can modify too much the instrument.

It's not the hammer line that bothers me, it's the fact that some hammers (11 and 16 for example) protrude distally (from the player) in relation to their neighbors.
I have zero experience with refelted hammers. Would there be a logical reason for this or is it just a poor job?

It is a vgood solution for some older actions, but it is better to use first grade felt, insist on hammer size (provide dimensions if possible) , insist to have the high treble moldings not rounded or cut (the very sharp molding is a challenge to refelt correctly sometime the moldings are twisted, or they can break in the presses, so the hammer maker (who does the refelting) make often new moldings for a part of the set in the high treble.

Despite that with refelting you avoid a lot of work .

Some hammers may protuberate because they have been unglued at some point, it is easy to correct in that case, but anyway difficult to see on a pic with no hammer line

The weight is the main reason to refelt hammers, and the lack of power of old panels can be the other, as more dense hammers may need to be needled a lot, the panel may saturate otherwhile...

Renner and Abel do a very good job on refellting.

Less heat is used but the felt is less compressed, hence less dynamics availeable (FFFF particularely)

But I tend to change the hammers anyway.

So would reflecting with goo felt (Abel or Renner) be a better option or just a different option with different results in regards to the dynamics available?

Refelting cannot be done indefinitvely, (it may depend how the new agrafes are installed, how the molding was thinned)
I would try to arrange (shape and density) the existing hammers, and change the whole setup later (inclueding keyboard modification, new whippens, etc, but the original action ratios have to be evaluated , it is easy to stay on the too heavy side or on the contrary have correct weight but too much key dip.
Q
If the keyboard allows for, a new action stack should be fine.

Bechsteins are really not the best for hamner impregnation, in my opinion, they produce yet a lot of partials, they seem to need much external tension more than inner density.