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#1713823 - 07/15/11 12:08 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: EssBrace]  
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I can't see maintenance being an issue on the AGs...maybe after several years of really heavy use...by which time you can regulate it, as opposed to a standard DP plastic action that would be shot by then. I see the potential for regulation as a life-extending (for the piano!) advantage, not a disadvantage.



You might be interested to know that Kawai uses plastic now (including in their Shigeru Kawai concert grands), their rationale being that plastic lasts far longer than wood, never bends out of shape or swells due to humidity/drying out problems etc.

My childhood home's Yamaha vertical (in a tropical country) kept developing 'sticky' keys. Last time I visited, about 10 keys were completely stuck.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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#1713905 - 07/15/11 01:43 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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EssBrace Offline
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Modern Yamaha actions are specifically made for centrally heated homes. The company is renowned for having brought consistency and reliability to the piano market. I just cannot see the AG suffering problems in the overwhelming majority of cases. I would also point out that, unlike Roland for instance, Yamaha use optical sensors - there is no mechanical stress or wear on the sensors. The keys of the AG are covered in Ivorite, the better Kawai grands use Neotex and the high end Kawai DPs use something very similar to Neotex. There are no reports that I have ever seen of premature failure of the key surface with any maker apart from Roland.

I'm not saying the PHA-III is not a good DP action. I've said many times what an agile, responsive action it is. I've owned three pianos equipped with it after all. But it is noisier than most, there are question marks over the resilience of the key surface and in terms of feel, it is not at all comparable with a real grand piano action.

#1713907 - 07/15/11 01:46 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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bennevis Offline
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Have a look at the Piano Forum to see what problems pianists experience with changes in humidity etc in their acoustic pianos. Yamaha is 'specifically made for centrally heated homes' - therein lies the problem.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#1713911 - 07/15/11 01:52 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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EssBrace Offline
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Not really - I live in a centrally heated home (as do most people in the developed world) so I'll be fine thanks. The woods that piano makers use are selected with the destination of the piano in mind so it will be better able to withstand environmental factors. I have a sneaking suspicion that had the V-Piano been equipped with a full wooden action, you would not have quite such a problem with the use of wood. Dare I suggest you would be rather pleased about it.

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#1713922 - 07/15/11 02:12 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: EssBrace]  
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I have a sneaking suspicion that had the V-Piano been equipped with a full wooden action, you would not have quite such a problem with the use of wood. Dare I suggest you would be rather pleased about it.


As deep as as the V-Piano is, and quite obviously the V-Piano Grand too, they have plenty of space in the cabinets to have installed a full sized grand piano action. The V-Piano is 530mm deep, and the AvantGrand N2 is 531mm deep. Almost identical. The V-Piano Grand has more than enough space for a real grand piano action.

I just think at $20,000 and touted as a grand replacement, even going so far as to showcase it in a concert setting, Roland could have put a real grand piano action inside of it. They've got the R&D dollars for it. It just seems a bit odd that you can have the same action in Roland's $2,000 FP-7F that also goes into their $20,000 premier V-Piano Grand.

I'm not saying the PHA III isn't a wonderful and expressive action, but it doesn't compare to a real grand piano action. The place where my N1 is on hold is a Roland Piano dealer as well and they have an LX-10F for sale, and I played that after playing a Mason & Hamlin BB, Yamaha C7, and then my AvantGrand N1, and to no surprise, the LX-10F felt like, well, a digital piano. It's a really great action for digital pianos but not for an acoustic grand substitute.


Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
#1714123 - 07/15/11 07:29 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: jmcintyre]  
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I'm not sure that I hear the much-discussed middle register dullness, etc. in the Roland SN APs (most of the criticism seems directed at the V-Piano; I have an FP-7F), but I AM sure what I want my AP patches to sound like, I'm not pleased with the default settings in the FP-7F, and I haven't found playing with the EQ menus to be helpful.

So what I've chosen to do is to turn OFF the Reverb and the Equalizer AT ALL TIMES and tailor the AP sounds exclusively through the subfunctions within Piano Designer. All of them.

Examples: (1) adjusting the Lid setting (0-1-2-3 for jazz ballads, 5-6 for uptempo); (2) increasing Cabinet Resonance above 4 (the higher settings add a reverb-like effect that I find less artificial than using the Reverb button); (3) playing with Duplex Scale (I like it at 1 rather than higher or Off).

I have found all the Designer subfunctions to affect the EQ to various extents.

(The settings above aren't prescriptions for others, just my personal preferences. And I must add that I find constant fiddling to be an enjoyable rather than a laborious pursuit. I can only imagine, if I had a V-Piano; I would have a feast.)

#1714163 - 07/15/11 08:53 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Yamaha is 'specifically made for centrally heated homes' - therein lies the problem.


Please explain why this is a problem.

As others have said, the PHAIII is a very capable digital piano action, however even the staunchest Roland fanboy would surely have to admit that it's not in the same league as the AvantGrand's real GP action.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1714479 - 07/16/11 01:56 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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It's a problem because a centrally heated home is assumed to have a constant dry atmosphere, not one that changes day by day, hour by hour. I've already said what happens in my apartment - the windows steam up when I hang up the washing (no, I haven't got a balcony to hang them up, nor a dryer somewhere else), or do some cooking - when the central heating is on, and windows closed as in the winter, or in summer when it's raining. I don't have a separate kitchen or washing/drying room with a door to keep moisture in.

I couldn't envisage having an expensive musical instrument that uses wooden moving parts in my home. But as I've already said, the Roland's key action satisfies me on all counts, and whether its key action is 'real' is beside the point - it's far more responsive and controllable than any upright's and quite a few grands, in any case. And switching directly from my V-Piano to an acoustic grand is easy - I don't even have to mentally adapt, unlike switching from an acoustic upright to a grand for example, when the difference in action is obvious immediately. It just feels right, and once I play, it doesn't cross my mind that I'm playing an electronic instrument. What does bothers me is not being able to 'feel'/hear a direct response to my every change of touch and dynamic, and a feeling that the sound isn't totally under my control (i.e. the instrument doesn't feel 'real'). And that applies to all sampled DPs that I've ever played: I'd be happy to practise on them occasionally, but they'd never be my only instrument


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#1714669 - 07/16/11 07:55 PM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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Well, as long as you are satisfied with your Roland - that's obviously the most important thing.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2043682 - 03/06/13 01:41 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
As for the key action, I don't think having a 'real grand piano action' makes any difference to the playability...


The question is of course if the action in the Avantgrand can really be called a 'real grand piano action'. It comes very close of course, but it is made especially for the Avantgrand which is not a real grand piano, so, by definition, it is also not a real grand piano action.

Also, because of limitations in the implementation, in terms of articulation and differentiated sound production, it does not respond exactly like a real grand piano action either.


#2043683 - 03/06/13 01:41 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
You might be interested to know that Kawai uses plastic now (including in their Shigeru Kawai concert grands), their rationale being that plastic lasts far longer than wood, never bends out of shape or swells due to humidity/drying out problems etc.

My childhood home's Yamaha vertical (in a tropical country) kept developing 'sticky' keys. Last time I visited, about 10 keys were completely stuck.


I have always found it mildly entertaining that Kawai touts their plastic parts in their real pianos and their wooden parts in their fake ones...

#2043689 - 03/06/13 02:02 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: PianoZac]  
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Originally Posted by theJourney
I have always found it mildly entertaining that Kawai touts their plastic parts in their real pianos and their wooden parts in their fake ones...


tJ,

Kawai utilises ABS/ABS Carbon action parts in acoustic pianos as they are faster, transfer greater amounts of power, and are more durable than their traditional wooden counterparts.

Kawai utilises wooden keys in premium digital pianos due to wood's unique structural properties, resulting in a more satisfying, comfortable, and believable playing experience.

I hope this explanation helps.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2043691 - 03/06/13 02:05 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by theJourney
I have always found it mildly entertaining that Kawai touts their plastic parts in their real pianos and their wooden parts in their fake ones...


tJ,

Kawai utilises ABS/ABS Carbon action parts in acoustic pianos as they are faster, transfer greater amounts of power, and are more durable than their traditional wooden counterparts.

Kawai utilises wooden keys in premium digital pianos due to wood's unique structural properties, resulting in a more satisfying, comfortable, and believable playing experience.

I hope this explanation helps.

James
x


Well, at the very least, it is entertaining! laugh

#2043735 - 03/06/13 03:45 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: Kawai James]  
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Macy Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Kawai utilises ABS/ABS Carbon action parts in acoustic pianos as they are faster, transfer greater amounts of power, and are more durable than their traditional wooden counterparts.

Kawai utilises wooden keys in premium digital pianos due to wood's unique structural properties, resulting in a more satisfying, comfortable, and believable playing experience.

I hope this explanation helps.

James
x

Makes sense. You wouldn't want a faster, durable digital or a comfortable, satisfying acoustic piano.


Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
#2043770 - 03/06/13 06:52 AM Re: Clash of the Titans: V-Piano Grand vs. AvantGrand N3 [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

(...)
Kawai utilises wooden keys in premium digital pianos (...), resulting in a more (...) believable playing experience.
(...)


I truely like this! To have a strong believing is very important for everybody, even for the ones who believe that they are not believers. Otherwise doubts would spoil life for them. That´s why I believe to own the best DP for my situation, and it is not a V-Grand, and not an AG, but an even better instrument! wink

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