Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?`

I think that there are a lot of differences between a top notch and an average piano technician on works of voicing and regulations (I don't talk about rebuilding works which require even more skills).

But how about tuners? With softwares and electronic tools which have graphics to put side by side the right sounds and the out-of-tune sounds, and more features that I can imagine such as set the temperament then its corresponding characteristics... I guess that nowadays, technicians only need max few weeks to learn to use these softwares, tools... then the differences between a top-notch and an average technician are not as important as before.

??? Thanks

There are aspects of tuning that machines still have not mastered. But the biggest difference may be most apparent a while after the tuning. The better the tuner, the longer the piano stays close to being in tune.

By far the best way to answer your question is to get yourself some software and a tuning hammer then have a go.

This is definitely not true. Even with the most advanced machines (TuneLab, Verituner, Cybertuner), a novice will probably need to tune at least 50 pianos before the tunings are passable and at least double or triple that before they can be considered proficient. And they will have to have at least a basic understanding of tuning theory in order to program the machine properly. For aural tuners who start learning to use an ETD, many have problems adjusting (taking more than a few weeks), and some of them ultimately decide it's not worth the hassle to change.




All technicians have their strengths and weaknesses. For some, it's tuning, for others, it's technical work. While using a machine can definitely lower the learning curve, it is not eliminated. As I said before, one still has to know how to program the machine, and one has to be able to tune perfect unisons by ear, and do it quickly, and make sure that the tuning is stable.

The overwhelming majority of pianists cannot tell the difference between an "average" tuning and a "top-notch" tuning and after a certain point, what constitutes a "top-notch" tuning is subjective. Unfortunately, many tuners get so wrapped up in the tuning that they ignore the other stuff....

True enough in some respects, I suppose, but then again, not all ETDs are the same. I can't speak for the other programs, but it is unlikely that most RPTs could beat a Verituner tuning (especially when using custom styles), and this is not just my opinion, as many RPTs I know share this view.





Beyond a certain point, I'm skeptical of how true this is, because there are so many things (the weather, for example) that can conspire against even the most solid tuning. I know this from experience, having done fairly large pitch raises on pianos a month after they were previously tuned by really good tuners.

@withindale:
1/ I humbly ask this question as service consumer, not as a service provider.

2/ Let's focus: This question is to see the gap of nowadays between a top-notch and an average. The reason is some so-called "top-notch" charge $175 US dollars, and an "average" charge in the range $80 -> $120. So what are the difference when both would use same softwares, or same ETD?

3/ "get yourself some software and a tuning hammer then have a go": I'm not even a rookie in this field, and have no intention to become one. Again : just a service consumer's question.


@beethoven986:
1/ "a novice will probably need to tune at least 50 pianos before the tunings are passable": I asked about average + top-notch, not about novice.

2/ "one still has to know how to program the machine": I earn my living in the last 20 years as a software engineer (mechanical in the beginning of professional life then switch to IT, so I'm very sensitive to trainings, and differences between different qualifications). The learning curve of how to program the machine is exactly the same for an average, a top-notch. But the top-notch will not always learn faster, sometimes much slower, because programming is something new to both of them. I'm very senior in Oracle then Java/J2EE, but when I have to learn DOJO I mumble as a baby, 5 times slower than a 26 year old guy!

So after programming phase of the new machine, what's the big difference between a top-notch and an average technician in related to piano tuning?

Regards

Greetings,
The top notch tuner is one with a combination of dexterity, which is needed for pin setting, hearing that can discern the faint phasing required for unisons, and exposure to other techs of similar ability. I don't see many top notch techs that have spent their careers isolated from other techs.
The mediocre tech doesn't care, the purpose of tuning the piano is to get paid. Others do that too, but also tune the piano so that it represents who they are, and I find that customers will pay more for that. The only top notch tuners I have seen really, really, like working on pianos. Most of them have solid, formal, training. Most of them have a long list of customers that will vouch for them.
And, their tunings stay "in tune" longer.
Regards,

My point is that there is more to tuning than one might imagine, tuning hammer and listening skills for starters. Have a look at the current thread on Unison Tuning in the tech forum to get an idea.

You could well be right about ETDs raising the base level.

As a general rule on price, my grandfather's advice to never go for the cheapest or the most expensive probably applies. Performance comes before price in this field.

From my vantage point as a novice, there are many requirements. An average tuner-tech would hopefully get most of these right at some level of proficiency, while a top-notch should get all of them (and possibly more) right at a high level:

* Interacting professionally with the client
* The actual tuning (laying and expanding a decent temperament, appropriate and/or desired stretch, clean unisons)
* Importantly, like BDB said: making the tuning stable
* Addressing/resolving small repairs and adjustments as they appear, i.e. striving to leave touch and tone a bit better than it was found
* Advising on the need and/or feasibility of larger repairs, adjustments, etc.
* Doing all of this in a reasonable amount of time.

Other than the second point, I don't see that the mastery of machines or their programs is going to help much.

Having been a member here for several years now, I've seen this topic come up several times. It can get heated, and tempers can flair (or is it flare? ).

Anyway, as someone who has learned to tune my own pianos, and, having tuned several pianos for others (for free) I must say that I have learned why piano tuners charge what they do… it is not at all easy, and can be very time consuming and tedious work; however, the end result is what really counts.

So, with that said, I do indeed have a renewed respect for really good piano tuners.

I can’t say that I’ve tuned 50 pianos, but have definitely tuned my pianos 50 times (or more).

I say that if a piano owner wants to give it try, go for it… however, there are risks involved.

Rick

In my opinion, there are crucial differences between a top-notch tuning and an average one. Please note that I have not worded this as differences between tuners (i.e., people) but rather as differences between tunings (i.e., the finished job).

I do not believe, based on the evidence of my ears, that a tuning that relies solely upon a machine is ever as good as one that relies primarily upon the ears of the person doing the job. I have experienced both (or rather my piano has, I just listen). Machine-based tunings just are not the same. The tempering that an ear-based tuning can supply sounds wonderful, and tends to be missing from a machine-based tuning, at least to the sophisticated extent that ears can provide. Probably because of this, an ear-based tuning can last a long time. I can hear the chords going out of tune a lot more quickly with a machine-based tuning, something I attribute to the fact that the machine probably never got them fully correct in the first place.

To me, this is a situation in which my Luddite-ism is warranted by the facts. I mourn the dying art of tuners using their ears to tune pianos. The best tunings I have ever had start either with a fork to set A at 440, or with a machine used for that sole purpose; the rest relies on the tuner's ears. It is getting harder to find people who tune pianos this way--if you find someone who does, stick with them!!!

In addition to some good comments above, a top notch tuner has a commitment to excellence. A desire to tune each piano a bit better than the previous piano. A willingness to go over the piano until it's right, and a realization that they are only as good as the last piano they tuned.

A great tuner will:

• Address each piano as an individual
• Set a temperament appropriate for the instrument
• Create flawless unisons
• Set the pins to provide tuning stability

A decent tuner will:

• Apply a generalized temperament
• Provide decent unisons
• Leave the piano sounding OK

A bad tuner will:

• Charge too much for the quality provided
• Run away real fast

A Great Tuner spends a lifetime on a quest to provide the perfect tuning, time and time again.

Bob, you summarized my thoughts better than I could have. Thank you.

With this kind of attitude, one has the makings of being a very professional piano technician, IMHO.

Greetings,

I dunno. After formal training, I spent 16 years tuning aurally in recording studios, at the highest price on the market. The programmable tuning machine I then bought (an arthritis friendly move) made me a better tuner than I was. It is a recording device, it allows cumulative improvement, and it is more consistent than any human. I have dumped my tuning on familiar D's and had some of the best ears on the planet comment favorably on it.
Many machine tuners today never learned to leave a stable tuning, but on a well-scaled piano, there are few aural tuners that would care to compete with say, a V-100 or SAT III. I have seen it done, and perhaps a Jim Coleman or Virgil Smith can tune so accurately that rooms full of techs voting are evenly split between the machine and the ear. However, if one is to believe that any aural tuner is going to be tuning like Jim or Virgil, I have a bridge to sell...
If your "machine" tunings are going out of tune more quickly, it is doubtful that it was because the machine didn't put the pitch in the correct place to begin with. I would first suspect that the person using the machine did a sloppy job of pin setting.
Regards,

I suppose for me, great tuners "push the boundaries" - doesn't matter a bit if they prefer to tune aurally, or use a modern electronic tuning device.

The best 'tune for the music' - too many 'tune for the checks' - (ha ha, I was thinking the tuning test checks, but the money meaning may just as well apply!)

Instead of repeating the same approach over and over, the best tuners will always be searching for ways to make the piano sound better just with the tuning lever. Alternate temperaments, experimenting with stretches, a passionate focus on unisons... all of these can come into play over a tuner's working life.

Ron Koval

The great aural tuners I know, leave the piano more musical sounding than a machine, the unisons are very solid and the difference is noticeable by most.

Steve

One problem machine tuners have that they are either unaware of or ignore, is that a piano can drift in pitch while tuning from reacting to temperature swings in the air. Ear tuning involves constantly referencing the string you are presently tuning to the strings tuned earlier. If the earlier work is drifting slightly the present work is harmonized with it. If you are tuning to a set of reference pitches stored in memory the newly tuned string will not reflect the drift.

The other problem is some techs think the precision of the machine gives them license to speed tune.

Another machine problem is some of the standard tuning programs have excessive treble stretch and too little bass stretch. This leaves the piano prone to sounding out of tune quicker because the best pitch for each note of the scale is not perfectly centered within the range of "in tune". Thus any rise or fall in overall pitch will quickly make either the bass too sharp or the treble too sharp.

Handled well, a good machine used by a skilled tech will result in a very good, well-centered, stable tuning. I usually tune by ear unless the client prefers a machine.

Given similar climatic conditions, the better the tuner, the longer the piano will stay in tune. Weather is a great excuse for sub-par tuners.

I think Ed has hit the nail here...tuners that are glued to their lights and spinning wheels can sometimes miss the fact that the strings they tuned earlier have shifted...they are not actually listening to the work they are doing, and the tuning will suffer. Although they have tuned every single wire precisely to the 'lights', they don't go back and check the 'drift' that any piano will go through during a tuning...especially when the pitch is being raised or lowered by more than a cent or two...and they don't realize that the earlier tuned strings aren't where they left them. An aural tuner automatically infuses later tuning with the sounds of the earlier tuning, and get a more balanced tuning at the end of the day.

A skilled machine user IS listening to, as well as watching, his tuning. Minor offsets, small changes to overall pitch, a willingness to use the ear in troublesome places, and the machine becomes an effective and useful tool that leads to outstanding tuning. I firmly believe that top-notch can be achieved by both aural and machine users, but only when the ear is the final arbiter of what's right.

The true difference between a 'top-notch' and an 'average' tuner, to me at least, is the total package. Is the technician just setting the pins and walking away? That is not, and never will be, top-notch to me!

I spent two years working on a dealership floor before I was willing to charge people for tunings in their homes. Only practice, and tuning LOTS of pianos, can lead to stable tunings that one can be proud of. It is precisely the problem of the day that people think they can buy a machine or program, and turn a few pins, and go out and charge the same fees (or more) than I do for their service. As Snoopy says; "Bleagh!"

Top-notch tuning and stability comes from practice, care, and a never ending attitude that one can (...must!) do better every time they touch a piano. 'Nuff said?

Sipping cup #2,
One sugar,
Ah!