Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Estonia L190--looking for reassurance!

direct quote from first page of this thread...where I said "yes you can."

"OU'VE MADE A HUGE MISTAKE!!!!





Just kidding:) Relax. They're top notch instruments. You really can't go wrong."

Reassurance about the piano chosen,or reasssurance that the hours spent in the future at the piano will justify the dollars spent to acquire it?

It's really up to you. If you find your groove on the piano and stay in that groove for years to come, you'll have all the reassurance that you need, but you'll need to be patient in accumulating it. If you find after a couple of years that the piano is more and more just sitting around occupying space, you may kick yourself.

If a loss of interest were to occur, it wouldn't be because you had chosen an Estonia. If you had chosen a Yamaha CX instead, it's likely the same thing would have happened. People persevere on far lesser instruments than an Estonia grand. People lose their attachment to instruments that many would say are better and cost far more. The music you mention seems like a nice fit for an Estonia to me. If so, that's a good point in your favor.

Despite the attempts to sancitfy the brand on PW that Ando mentioned, you really can't blame the piano. it's still a very good piano. It's not like there's some organized attempt here to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. Out where I live, Estonia is just another very good brand. It doesn't have a high recognition factor, but those who know it respect it. We don't have the Northeast corridor power grid of Estonia retailers that post here on PW. We have a few dealers up and down the left Coast, but they are mostly concerned with making a sale and replacing it in their inventory, not so much with publicizing the brand. I think it's a better environment for choosing your personal piano. I imagine it's like that where you live too.

Recently there was a flap here about a word framed by inverted commas or quotation marks however you want to refer to them. I note that refundable has been framed in parentheses in your post. If the parentheses and what lies within them were a form of reassurance to you, I hope you put that issue behind you before you committed.

The frost is off that pumpkin on the West Coast. I guess spring comes earlier here. It's a little comical what with you forever teasing Larry's thoughts and the '''''R A N K I N G S'''''' as some important development in order to pad site visitor stats, and Larry coming on here periodically to write how it's just a map of the market.

If this thread is a parade, you're the guy without a vendor permit setting up his lemonade cart hoping for a hot day.

The rankings aren't "a new feature".

Oh wow, I'm really getting a kick out of this thread! For what it's worth I do feel much better and less anxious. To answer your question, turandot, I suppose my nervousness is/was partially caused by the fact that I haven't found anyone around here (St. Louis) who actually owns an Estonia and they don't sell them here.

Also, the action on the Estonia is stiffer than what I'm used to. But I've always had pianos with too-light action and have wanted to make this change for a long time. I play better with a stiffer action but then I get fatigued earlier, so I'll have to adjust.

I played the piano for a total of about 5 hours. And it is just absolutely lovely and makes my heart go pitter-pat.

It might benefit from some regulation if it has not already been done to eliminate any excess friction or other causes of the stiffness you're feeling from it. You don't want unnecessary causes of fatigue.

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that Estonias are highly regarded instruments, and the ones ive played, although not my cup 'o tea, have been very fine top notch instruments for the price, and that they come with a 10 year warranty.
In my books these attributes mean that you can't go wrong here. Even if you bought a lemon I can't see how any issues with one of these instruments can't be resolved based on the fact that it has a comprehensive warranty.
This of course is all based on the assumption that the buyer originally liked the instrument that they chose. If they didnt like it, or bought it sight unseen then the problem may not be with the instrument. If you haven't had all of your issues with YOUR instrument resolved then you need to pursue your dealer's attention. If that doesn't work then you need to pursue the company's attention. If that doesn't work then you need to talk to a lawyer. All that said, I cant see how in the end your issues can't find a resolution.

The modern day Estonias have a huge following and fan base among the tiny, unrepresentative sample of North American(s) (dealers) on pianoworld.

Almost everywhere else in both the virtual and real world, not so much.

In fact, puffery and social media promotion on pianoworld probably has a lot to do with the Estonia being exclusively a small, niche US brand that happens to be built in Estonia.

Having said that, rather than return to the echo chamber of the pianoworld piano forum, sometimes you just need to make a choice and enjoy it rather than second guessing yourself and seeking reassurances that may be irrelevant to your personal experience.

This gives completely the wrong impression. Estonia pianos are a Estonian brand. The factory turned out concert grands in the Soviet era. As is well known, the owner, an Estonian and a concert pianist who trained in the US, has turned the company into a respected European manufacturer of grand pianos.


The reasons Estonia pianos are as successful as they are in the US are that Americans buy more grand pianos than Europeans and because people like them.


Why shouldn't someone seek reassurance? I recently bought a used piano for peanuts but, after it arrived, I had to reassure myself time and again that I had not made a mistake.

Yes. Estonia pianos are an Estonian brand that turned out pianos in the Soviet era. Remembering (and sometimes still being confronted with) the poor quality of these pianos is one of the main reasons that Estonia is not a successful brand in Europe.

Not having the memory of those poor pianos is one of the main reasons that the "new" Estonias can be successfully promoted here and sold in the US. Close to the entire production of today's Estonia is sold in the United States. That makes them look more like an off-shore US produced brand than a "respected European manufacturer of grand pianos."

What this comment fails to understand is that all "issues" with pianos aren't clearly covered by a warranty. Warranties cover defects in materials and workmanship. When these are black and white issues like pin block failure, major cosmetic problems, parts breaking, delamination of the case, etc., the need for resolution by the dealer or company will be obvious. Other problems can be more subtle and not so clearly covered under a warranty.

Good points but, if you look behind appearances today, I suspect you will find it's more a question of demand, marketing strategy and resources.

This, my friends, is the bottom line.

All recommendations, pro and con, should ultimately lead to the satisfaction of the buyer. That is what is most important.

Mission accomplished.

Hotcat, trust your heart and enjoy your piano.

I can understand that. Estonia isn't the only brand that seems larger than life on PW, but turns out to be almost invisible unless you live in certain pocket markets.

Conversely, based solely on PW chatter, you might think that Yamaha and Steinway are obscure brands that are widely disrespected......until you go shopping and keep bumping into them.

Think of yourself as a trend-setter in the St. Louis market.

Congratulations and best of luck in your new partnership.

Your position here is incorrect. I have spoken to Indrek on this topic on several occasions, most recently over dinner at NAMM. Estonia has limited production capabilities. For a variety of reasons Indrek doesn't want to significantly expand production. Estonia is able to easily sell the overwhelming majority of its production in the U.S. at reasonable margins.

It is not a major factor in the Europen market because it is not marketed there. Were its production sufficient to satisfy that market I have no doubt it would be a very competitive brand in Europe, as it is here in the U.S.

Also, the reason Estonia is discussed often on Piano World is that it is a very good value when compared to other brands selling in the same price range.

For clarity, I am not, nor have I ever been an Estonia dealer, nor a paid consultant for Estonia.

Turandot,

Popularity and availability alone hardly make something a better value, although they often make something a better "perceived value".

For instance, walk down the main street of any small town in the USA and randomly ask people to name a brand of automobile. I think you will hear Chevy, Ford, Honda, etc. - all common choices, but it would be rare to hear McClaren. It is probable that few, if any, of the people questioned could tell you anything about the McClaren. That does not mean that is was not a product that pushed the line in technology in its time.

The marketing line item in the P&L of Ford in the 1970's likely dwarfed the entire revenue of the McClaren company. Does that make a Ford better?

Now switch to a specialty item - performance pianos. Let's walk down that same street and ask those same people to name a piano. We will most likely hear Steinway, Yamaha, or Baldwin alot. We will likely not hear some of the finest brands today that have NOT had big marketing budgets in post WW II USA (including huge artist rosters).

Does that make a Fazioli or a Steingraeber somehow less piano? Just because they are not popular or available in our small town?

The fact is that a huge number of Steinway buyers never even consider another brand. Does that fact alone make it a better piano than an Estonia or a Schimmel?

In the end I think open minded pianists tend to play more brands (just for fun), find talking about boutique brands more interesting, find some of them a joy to play, and sometimes find them to be a wonderful instrument to buy.

My 2 rambling cents,

Being one of the oldest Estonia dealers on the continent I can assure everyone here that the success of Estonia was hard earned.

Opposition to the newcomer was immediate, some using the most grotesque arguments in the hope that this was not just another wonna be.

While I have been accused from early on of "hyping the brand" with others employing similar ungodly methods, the success of this piano was really very simple:

People liked its tone when trying it. Many were even startled. They recognized this was something different from virtually every other instrument out.

When playing the piano first time myself, I immediately recognized that this was not a new "manufactured tone" but something very deep based on something very old.

A unique Baltic culture based on song, choir and choral music.

This, and this alone is the success of the piano.

Those who did not pick up on it could simply walk away, but many didn't.

While in the beginning Estonia was mostly compared to Yamaha and other Japanese pianos, today its owners include many previous shoppers for Steinway,Bechstein, Shigeru, Sauter, even Fazioli.

The time of simply being denoted a "wonna-be" is over.

This of course could never have been occurred because of someone "hyping" the thing up the ranks, slick marketing or whatever.

Not even Steve Cohen, our fine onboard industry consultant, could have accomplished it.

"Equal among equal" is about the best I could describe things.

It was earned by nobody else but Estonia itself.

Norbert

A completely accurate description of your literally many hundreds and probably thousands of repetitive posts about Estonia. Of course, your personal definition of hyping(i.e. making false claims about a product)has never been the one others have used when they talk about your hyping. This has been explained to you many times by many people but you constantly forget it.

The above post is exactly describing the type hostility against the brand by those directly connected to the industry.

Typically these people appear under a disguise of names never too swift indifying themselves.

They fail to realize that the real "hypers of the industry" include some other brands whose long time efforts would dwarf anything ever being said about this small Baltic maker

Curiously it is this very hostility that has become the norm here. It totally ignores the fact that anybody can ignore anything or simply walk away from any piano option out there.

In real life excellence does have its price, the small guys know this and it's showing wherever they are operating.

Estonia is one of them.

These critics also don't realize that the need for further promotion for Estonia has long seized to be necessary with every single dealer known to me currently scrambling for replacement of existing stock.

In fact one fine U.S. dealer just "stole" a long awaited 190 Hidden beauty from me and I could kill him for that!

Norbert

Rich,

I don't believe that I have written a negative word about Estonia pianos. If I have somehow made a demeaning comment about Estonia pianos, I did not intend to.

My original question was addressed directly to Hotcat. His direct response to me was that part of his hesitation and need for reassurance stemmed from the fact that in his St. Louis market, he could find no retailers who stocked Estonia and no end-users either.

My reply back to him was that Estonia was not the only brand that seemed larger than life on PW, but was not easy to source in most US markets. Hotcat was committing a large amount of money to his piano purchase. It's easy to understand (at least to me) that the conditions in his own market (not that small a market BTW ) would make him stop and think before committing.

Hotcat overcame that hesitation. That's all good with me, and I can understand it too. I've always felt (and sometimes posted) that Estonia pianos have an alluring quality to their tonal response, and that it's harder to sound bad on one than it is to sound good.

If Dr. Laul has found a formula that attracts North American pianists to his brand and identified certain US local markets as his key strategic market, I would say that's his business -- literally.

As I wrote in the quote you excerpted, Estonia is not the only brand to seem larger than life on PW yet somehow nearly invisible in most US markets. There's quite a bit of Sauter chatter on PW, certainly not as much as Estonia, but more than you might expect considering Sauter's current presence in the US market. Yet Sauter is a force in tiny Singapore. If Sauter has identified Singapore as a key market and not worked quite as hard in the US, I would hardly fault the company for that, and certainly never fault the pianos.

So, to repeat, it's all good to me in terms of Hotcat's purchase, and the piano lit ne mentioned seems to me like a nice fit for his new Estonia. I was merely pointing out that appreciative attention paid to certain brands on PW is often disproportionate to their actual market presence here and that unappreciative attention paid to other brands is proportionate to their market dominance.

BTW, I drive a Honda, but I'd rather have a Citroen. It's just so hard to source one.