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kuifje:

Absolutely, which is further proof of arpeggiation and asynchronization. When Chopin was a young student, he didn't play Chopin. He played Bach, a lot of Bach, and he played Beethoven and Mozart.

In that he charged 80 francs for a 45 minute lesson to wealthy aristocrat females, do you think their fathers would fork out that kind of money for lessons on just the music of Chopin. I very seriously doubt it.

This goes to a ridiculous statement made by one famous Debussy specialist that, in the piano roll recording, he is improvising in a Chopinesque fashion. Debussy is rolling his chords and playing the bass note slightly ahead of the soprano because, as a child, that is the way he was taught to play Chopin, Brahms, Schumann, and everybody else "Mark_C".

With Chopin, do you think that one day he just decided to start arpeggiating his chords, and he had never played that way before?

The same thing holds true for Clara Schumann and Brahms. When they were young, they didn't play Schumann or Brahms. They played what Chopin played, which was Baroque and Classical Period Repertoire.

So, when you hear Carl Friedberg's live recital recordings of Chopin, that is the way his teacher Madamme Schumann heard it played when she attended concerts at his home, and when she was invited to play duets with the composer.

Adelilna de Lara tells the story of how Herr Brahms used to sneak into the room when lessons were being taught and his music was being played by one of Clara Schuman's students. He would stand quitely behind each student, and then would critique and comment on how he thought his music should be played.

Further, she relates (all of this in her audio narrative, which is included in the "Pupils of Clara Schumann" box set) that the first piece she ever played for Brahms was the Beethoven Op. 111 Sonata.

So, in this recording, when you hear her roll her chords in the playing of the Beethoven C Minor Variations, that is the way Clara Schumann taught her to play it because that is the way her father Herr Wiek taught her.

And, when you you hear Adelina de Lara's Brahms recordings or those of Carl Friedberg, who was personally tutored by Brahms, then you can take it to the bank that they rolled their chords and asynchronized their melody.

For additional reference, I suggest you get the recordings of Moritz Rosenthal, Alfred Cortot, and Teresa Carreno, all of whom studied under teaching assitants of Chopin.

I thank you for your interest.

LHP

Thanks a lot Louis for this very interesting information.
Now I have to first try myself...and then I will challenge my teacher.

This is quite without research or references, forgive me, but...hasn't improvisation become less commonplace as time has gone on? I mean, harpsichordists were expected to produce their own ornaments...weren't they? So, um, if we assume (wherein may lay my failing, I admit) that as we go further back we deviate from the score *more*...isn't it almost a necessity to say that asynchronisation would occur the further back we flee from mechanical repetition? Sorry..I'm sure you've put *a lot* of time into this...um...I'm not doubting your convictions or motives, but...*everyone* noodles around with the score, don't they? So in a time less obsessed with accuracy and more with personal interpretation (again, another wild assumption)...wouldn't asynchronisation be as common in vertical lines as it is in horizontal?

It seems to me that the big fallacy in this presentation is the assumption that every student is going not only to copy exactly what his teacher teaches him but will also continue to do so throughout his lifetime of composing and performing, regardless of new influences that may impact his performing style.

The corollary of that is to assume that, aside from what one may have been taught, performance practice and performance styles do not change whether through fashion or inspiration.

To cite only one example : To assume that Chopin would continue to play as Zwyny and Elsner taught him is to deny the influences of those he met and heard when he settled in Paris.

Regards,

I agree with those who are saying this information isn't news. We've had discussion here about the de-sychronization of the hands, and anyone who has listened carefully to a wide range of recordings will have heard it. I've known about the rolling of chords for so long that I've forgotten where I learned it, although on recordings it seems not very common and I don't recall as many "modern" examples of it on recordings as there are of the de-sychronizing the hands. But, of course, the rolling and breaking of large chords out of necessity is something that all pianists who have played much repertoire will know about.

But I do think that students should know about old performance practices, regardless of whether or not they are taught to actually attempt to reproduce those practices. The easy access to examples of all kinds of interesting old performance variants on YouTube is the real news, I think, as well as having places like Piano World in which to have discussions about them. There have been numerous references here to Hamilton's book. And during the Sydney competition, I pointed out Da Costa's informative pieces on early recordings that were part of the broadcast and were available online (I don't know if they still are).

swiss boy:

Thank your for your kind comment.

However, and I caution all those out there who are going to "dip their musical toe in the water" and explore the logic of my post, that the "Mark_C's" of this world are what most of you will run up against, if you pursue this.

And, that is a very good thing. Because, I was my own "Mark_C" for over 13 years. I truly did not believe this is the way the music was originally played.

So, the first thing you do is to build your discography of 19th century pianists, and students of those pianists, that recorded in the early 20th century. Marston, Arkive, and All Music are excellent retail source websites of the pianists I have listed above in various posts.

However, 90% of the discography available (unfortunately) can only be garnered for "free" from your local library through Interlibrary Loan "ILL."

Then, you build your written sources, which are 1) "Classical and Romantic Performing Practice," by Clive Brown, and 2)"After the Golden Age," by Kenneth Hamilton, and finally Neal Peres Da Costa's book, "Off the Record: Performing Practices In Romantic Piano Playing."

Most importantly, let your ears be your guide. And after that, play devils advocate with yourself and challenge every piece of knowledge you come upon.

Finally, always treat your teacher with the utmost respect because your goal is the pursuit of knowledge, and not some foolish trophy game. Remember, Music is love, and that is, after all is said and done, the most important thing

LHP

You've never been a MarkC.

To be sure, I have my own stubbornesses too but I hope I've never been so resistant to input or declined so persistently to deal directly with it. It's been pointed out to you repeatedly that it's no news that this practice was common for a large portion of the 19th century, and you keep replying with more examples from.....the 19th century -- mid-century and forward. You cite that book as showing that CPE Bach advocated the practice, but the book contains nothing of the sort. And you got the Czerny quote completely backwards. It doesn't support the idea that the practice was common earlier; it goes against it.

If your point is simply that chord-rolling ever existed as a common practice, that would be right, but it would be absolutely no news, since it is well known that it was commonplace for much of the 19th century and into the first part of the 20th. Therefore I assume that your main point is that it was a common practice also during earlier times (not just any rolling of chords but as a usual way of playing chords) and thus that the "block" style is the unusual thing and a historical outlier -- and that's where you've got a big problem. If that's not your main point, then I'm not sure what you think the "news" is and how it is that you think teachers have been teaching wrong.

I wish you luck with your pursuit. You'll do better if you let yourself be willing to consider these points (so far you clearly aren't), but even as it is, what you're doing is a celebration of a wonderful and interesting practice of yesteryear. The problem is that you're expanding what it actually was, and making more of your findings than you should. I have the feeling you think I'm against such Romantic practices. I'm absolutely not. I'm a huge, huge fan of the old Romantic style of playing, about as much as anyone could be. I think the beauty of it has never since been equaled except by just a tiny handful of pianists.

wr:

Thank you for your inciteful comments. However, I would like to clarify one thing which somehow is causing confusion.

For starters, I write and have have been published as a social activist philosopher. In doing so, I have worked on and also provided source material for dozens of news reporters.

Therefore, when I use the word "news," it means information that has not been disseminated to the general public. And, the fact that Chopin and Brahms rolled most of their chords and asynchronized their melody lines is not known, not only to the general public, but also to a whole lot of classical musicians.

I studied under Jack Roberts in 1971 at North Texas. Two studios down was Richard Cass, and the Assistant Dean was Bob Rogers. Jack was a student of Gyorgy Sandor, Cass studied under Cortot, and Rogers got his degree at Julliard under Carl Friedberg.

I finished up at UT Austin in 1981, and between the 1,300 music majors at NTSU and the folks in Austin, there was not one word said about this type of playing.

Finally, thank you for mentioning the You Tube examples of Neal Peres Da Costa. I enclose those links, which Neal sent to me in one of his many supportive e-mails.

When you hear chamber music played with a non-percussive block chord piano part, the result is true joy and beauty.

LHP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uydnhCdU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJXTmfMK3wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZtsAXD_MM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1czQoO0JPQ

If by "non-percussive block chord piano part" you mean rolled or arpeggiated chords, remember that beauty is in the eye (ear) of the beholder. To some, it just sounds out-dated and lacking precision.

Regards,

BruceD

Well, you had better let the folks at the Eastman School of Music know about it because that is where it was performed in March of 2012, in Hatch Hall. Further, while you are at it, give the people at Stanford and Yale a ring because that is where they will be performing in September along with a retun trip to Eastman. We wouldn't want these schools associated with performers that are "out-dated and lacking precision."

For those others who think that this playing is stunningly beautiful like I do, I am providing a link to Dr. Peres Da Costa's Sydney Conservatorium contact page. His Quintet will be touring the U.S. from September 9-20, so if you would like to hear him play in your city, please do not hesitate to contact him.

http://sydney.edu.au/music/people/neal_peres_da_costa.shtml

That definitely was the case when I attended NTSU from 1971-73. I studied with Roberts, took Piano Pedagogy from Rogers, and later studied with Cass when he moved to UMKC in 1976. This particular issue was never discussed - although Mr. Roberts tried very hard to break me of the bad habit I'd slipped into of sometimes "rolling" chords when playing Brahms......

carey:

Thanks for the backup. And, hey folks, this comes from a guy who used to play the piano at a Shakey's Pizza Parlor!

What he also did was to play the Ricordanza for his successful DMA audition. It was simply beautiful.

You still have much unanswered ground to cover here.

The things we're raising are important and could be good practice for you, because they'll be raised if you succeed in taking your stuff to a larger stage -- and it wouldn't be bad for you to be ready.

Don't you think there is a reason why that "tradition" or trend died out?

Oh my gosh Louis, you have an amazing memory. It's been over 40 years since we attended NTSU and studied with the same teacher. It's a true pleasure to hear from you again !!

This topic was as well brought up on the Adult Beginners Forum and also on the Piano Teachers Forum and the OP collected there the same overall response as here in the Pianist Corner. Those other two threads are dead, which to me means that there is nothing to add to the topic.
As this thread here is still active, but I am afraid to once more see a forum thread on risk to develope into smart-alec discussions ending up in endless terminology and personal misunderstandings, I would like to try to summarize all the story like this: what´s for the OP an exciting insight into alternative musical fashions, as they have always been around, it to others is not much exciting but just a matter of knowing that music can be annotated, interpreted and expressed in different ways. From beginners to teachers to university study pianists comments have been collected which show agreement on the practice to roll chords and disagreement that there would be something amazingly new about it.
So, let us spread the word that different musical fashions existed and exist and that it is not necessary to stylistically stick to only "one truth" on how to make music. Isn´t the story that simple?