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Allow me to continue on that thought and add a musical touch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

Update:

Have decided to put an order in for the flagship Clavinova CLP-480 as I have found that the Kawai CA95 has very metallic/raspy/fuzzy piano presets, so much so that it becomes somewhat grating to the senses after a while. Will be trading in the CA95 for the CLP-480. Please note that I have tinnitus (or, ringing in the ears) which might be contributing to this odd anomaly. Others here who have bought the CA95 have not been reporting this overly metallic/raspy/fuzzy sound as I am perceiving it.

The CLP-990M that I now own (i.e., 12 year old model) has a very nice and clear "Grand Piano 1" sound with none of the fuzzy resonance of the CA95. It stands to reason that the CLP-480 will have equally good piano sounds with decent projection from a 200-watt setup with "GP Soundboard Speakers."

It may be interesting to note that I do not perceive any of the Roland V-Piano presets to be overly metallic and fuzzy (not clear). Only the CA95 has piano sounds I like the least of the three flagship DP's that I own. I happen to like the "Grand Feel" action in the CA95 but not the quality of the piano tones.

Anyone that owns a Clavinova CLP (400 series) - what do you think?

Another episode in pv88's never-ending quest for the perfect digital piano? Well, good luck then.

A word of warning though -- afaik the CLP-480 does not have 88 key sampling. Just so you know.

On a side note -- yesterday when I came back from my teacher and tried to play the stuff I had started learning, I noticed something like a vibrato effect in my headphones but only sometimes and only when certain key combinations were pressed. Maybe it was the sound mixing or something, but nothing serious and I'm certainly not going to send my CA-95 back. :p

pv88, I have read your post, here:

Have decided to put an order in for the flagship Clavinova CLP-480 as I have found that the Kawai CA95 has very metallic/raspy/fuzzy piano presets, so much so that it becomes somewhat grating to the senses after a while. Will be trading in the CA95 for the CLP-480. Please note that I have tinnitus (or, ringing in the ears) which might be contributing to this odd anomaly. Others here who have bought the CA95 have not been reporting this overly metallic/raspy/fuzzy sound as I am perceiving it.

The CLP-990M that I now own (i.e., 12 year old model) has a very nice and clear "Grand Piano 1" sound with none of the fuzzy resonance of the CA95. It stands to reason that the CLP-480 will have equally good piano sounds with decent projection from a 200-watt setup with "GP Soundboard Speakers."

It may be interesting to note that I do not perceive any of the Roland V-Piano presets to be overly metallic and fuzzy (not clear). Only the CA95 has piano sounds I like the least of the three flagship DP's that I own. I happen to like the "Grand Feel" action in the CA95 but not the quality of the piano tones.

Anyone that owns a Clavinova CLP (400 series) - what do you think?

______________________________________________

What do I think? Perspective:

I have a CLP - 50 Yam Clavinova from the 1980s as I recall, huge speakers, great to play. then I got an acoustic which was cool and is cool and I got a cheap yam P95 board - all good and enjoy them.

I saw in the local paper that there was a piano for people to play where it was a piano that was going to the city dump and was brought into shape and chained to a city bench to be played. (called streetpiano88 started in England) So I got up one morning and found the piano and removed the rain cover and saw it was a piano that was not a upright that would be at shoulder height but was waist level - so squished and I don't know what you would call that type of piano. Most of the keys were chipped, and extremely yellow and I don't know why - like the piano was a smoker because it was the yellow that smokers fingers have. Keys were fine to play, the piano was fine to play, but the keys have a loose quality to them, but I would be very proud to have that piano if that was the only piano I could afford, so while "tons" of posts are all about sound and quality and action and all the technical stuff - in the end for me just being able to place my hands on the keys and play the little tunes I have learned is simply awesome.

Richard, I'm sorry to read that your tinnitus has affected your enjoyment of the CA95.

May I wish all the best with the CLP-480.

Kind regards,
James
x

James,

Thanks for your reply.

As I am still not for certain if the tinnitus is the underlying cause of hearing the piano sounds as "fuzzy" since my other digitals do not sound like this. I like everything about the CA95 except for the perceived quality of the sounds.

The CLP-990M and Roland V-Piano are certainly free of this fuzziness and even the Kawai EP3 (which I have kept) is okay. The EP3 does not sound at all like the CA95 as it has the older "Harmonic Imaging" samples.

I do enjoy the clear piano sound in the CLP-990M so it stands to reason that the CLP-480 will be the best choice in replacing the CA95.

Richard, my personal recommendation would be to skip the CLP-480 and go straight for an AvantGrand N1.

Kind regards,
James
x

I already considered an AvantGrand N1 previously however the footprint is still too big for my current space as the digital I swap out for the CA95 needs to be almost exactly the same size as an upright console model. The measurements of the N1 are larger than what I have space for so the CLP-480 is the best choice. Also, the N1 is not the "flagship" model in the AvantGrand series, the "N3" is. I am only collecting digitals denoted by flagship designation, presently. As I currently have the Roland V-Piano, the CLP-990M, and, then the CLP-480.

And, other than having flagship status the most important attribute of a digital piano are the piano sounds (with action being a close 2nd) as I like the quality of the Clavinova's the best and they are crystal clear with very good clarity.

Also, I would like to retain at least one digital (CLP-480) that has steel string guitar sounds since I play a fair amount of classical guitar pieces and transcriptions at the piano. The AvantGrands do not have any guitar presets.

Okay, I understand.

As I say, best of luck with the Clavinova.

James
x

It is interesting that you mention the CLP-480 does not have 88 key sampling although the CLP-990/990M, does. 88 separate samples for each key, 192 note polyphony, 8-step (not 4) weighted hammer action, solid spruce wood keys, and, escapement simulation where you can trigger a soft sound from the escapement point. These are pretty impressive features for a 12 year old model.

Also, I have found a photo of a partial wooden key from a more recent model (CP1, in the original file name) however, it only has strips of wood over a plastic key shell which is not a solid wood key:

http://imgur.com/DUcxfTi

There is no question of solid wood in the CLP-990's keys:

http://imgur.com/fXmL0gQ

Can we then assume that the later Clavinova models (including the CLP-480) are like the CP1 and don't have solid wood keys?

Also, no mention of any escapement simulation in the CLP-480.

The CLP-990 has some features that the CLP-480 does not.

There's no escapement/let-off (aka the click at the bottom of a white key's trajectory) on any CLP piano.

It's also a known fact that the "wooden" keys in the CLP pianos are not really made of wood, there's only a thin bar at the sides of the white keys, the black ones are completely plastic.

It's funny that the current top-of-the-line CLP model does not have features the model from 12 years ago had.

You are not alone. Simone Dinnerstein, a concert pianist, described the CA95 as sounding "brittle" and "nasal". In the same video, she says the CLP-480 is "excellent", but complains that the keys feel stiff, which I suspect everyone would agree is a downside to the Yamaha GH keyboard.

I'm sure you have read my experiences with my CLP-440. I initially had some doubts regarding the sound, but after extensively testing other brands as well as pianos up to the Yamaha N2, I realize any tone oddities I hear are simply the result of piping reasonably accurate piano tones directly to my ear via headphones. Through external speakers, the pianos sound as expected.

I am curious why you chose the 480? Did you need the hojillion other tones and functions? Did you want the extreme speaker configuration? Otherwise, the piano is virtually the same as the 440 and 470, which cost considerably less.

The wooden keys are not simply strips of wood along the side. It is, from what I have seen in photos and described in words, a solid piece of wood that covers the top, from one side to the other. It does have a plastic core and the action is identical to the all-plastic GH3. I cannot see how this would have any affect on the feel, since the moving parts are identical. The only thing I noticed when playing, is that the keys thump a little louder when they hit the key bed.

Video source here

pv88,
How do you find the NW3 action vs PHAIII and GF?"And why did you bought Yahama instead of ROland HP507?

As I said/posted before, the CLP-470 was the runner-up in my decision process. The CLP-480 would be nice but spending ~$5000 on the first piano for a starting player just seemed too much. The CA-95 was already somewhat beyond the price margin I originally did not want to cross but I fell in love with its tone and the other features so I bootstrapped and kept saving up for a few more months.

It's quite funny because when I decided to buy a piano, I aimed at a Kurzweil MP10, which costs a third of the price of the CA-95. This thought always puts a smile on my face.

Personally, I would have bought the 470 if the price difference was $100-200. It's ridiculous that they are charging $700 more for something that, in theory, should have zero effect on the feel. Alternatively, if the 470 had the speaker system of the 480, I would have splurged.

The 480 is insanely priced. For just a bit more, I could buy the N1. For $1000 less, I could get the NU1.

And for several thousand less you could get a whole range of pianos that sound just as good.

To everyone above:

@MacMacMac,

It is absolutely true that you don't need to spend a lot of money in which to get a very decent DP as another one that I almost considered getting as a primary piano (before the V-Piano) was:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/stagepianos/cp/cp300/

For those not aware of the specs on this model it has two upward facing speakers (of 30 watts per side - 60 total) which makes this an excellent stage piano in the $2K price range. It has very good piano sounds on board that are projected with more than enough power.

It is just my personal and subjective opinion although I am now sure that I would have liked the CP300 over the V-Piano as for the basic quality of the piano sounds. Clear and piano-like, not electronic and artificial.

@Daniel Corban,

Yes, the CLP-480 is quite expensive although I will be getting a very nice discount towards the purchase with the trade-in of my Kawai CA95. I essentially made the sale today over the phone with my local store as they will assemble everything before delivery as well. Will take a couple of weeks before one arrives.

As for choosing the CLP-480 over the other models is on account of having the flagship model with a ton of features and also the most powerful speaker system with the extra "GP Soundboard Speakers." I tend to prefer listening to my playing via the speakers versus headphones although I make use of headphones when recording. Looks like the CLP-480 has the highest rated output of any upright/console style digital with 200 total watts. The CLP-990M that I have has only 120 watts and the speakers are in the front of the topmost portion of the cabinet facing the player which sound quite excellent, overall.

In the end I will own two Clavinova's and the Roland V-Piano along with the smaller and portable Kawai EP3 which does not have the raspy/fuzzy sounds like the CA95. If it wasn't for the grating unpleasant tones of the piano presets in the CA95 then I probably would have kept it.

@Clayman,

I am glad to hear that you are liking your CA95 as I have enjoyed mine to some extent as long as I have had it although since I continue to hear and perceive these rather annoying raspy/fuzzy metallic tones in all of the piano presets I will have to exchange it for the CLP-480 which I know will not do this. It seems unfortunate to switch as the CA95 has an excellent action however there is no amount of tweaking I can do within the settings to improve upon the samples. They are very metallic to begin with and I am thinking that my sensitive hearing (including having tinnitus) may be a factor in why I hear these piano samples the way I do.

@kapelli,

Just to clarify there is no reason for me to consider a Roland HP507 (which is a very nice piano by the way) since I already own the V-Piano and will not be trading it in towards anything else.

As for actions:

Also, I have found that my favorite action so far is in the Kawai CA95 ("Grand Feel") as for the responsive feel of the keys which bottom out very nicely with decent cushioning and it has the quietest action of any I have played.

The Roland V-Piano has the lightest feeling and quickest action of any I have played and is the best for fast repetitions and scale work. The only negative to the PHAIII action would be the very hard bottoming out.

The CLP-990M (12 years old) has a very good action which is heavier in feel than the CA95 although it fares just a little better than the V-Piano as for bottoming out and the keys do make a little noise.

Extra note:

As of today (7-3-13) I have placed an order for the CLP-480.

Hope that everyone has a very nice "Fourth (4th) of July!"
(Or, "Independence Day" - here in the US.)

@Michael_99,

Please do enjoy whatever digital it is you are able to afford as the average consumer doesn't have the resource in which to buy an AvantGrand, Roland V-Piano Grand, or, an acoustic grand piano. Even so, there are many other choices.

As of currently my preference is for the sounds that are in the CLP-990M.
(And, it is certainly not the most expensive digital out there.)

pv: Couldn't you afford the AG? Or an acoustic?
The cost of the pianos you've already bought and rejected would have paid for either!

pv88, I have read your post, here:

Please do enjoy whatever digital it is you are able to afford as the average consumer doesn't have the resource in which to buy an AvantGrand, Roland V-Piano Grand, or, an acoustic grand piano. Even so, there are many other choices.

As of currently my preference is for the sounds that are in the CLP-990M.
(And, it is certainly not the most expensive digital out there.)

_______________
Well, I don't know what an AvantGrand is or a V-Piano Grand is. What is special about them?

Well, as I said, the CLP-50 was made probably 20 years ago and I paid 3,000, as I remember. A year ago I bought a Yam P95 because I was very weak and need a piano that I could play on the floor supporting the piano on concrete blocks and sliding underneath the P95 piano and playing it tilted while lying on my back.

All digitals are slightly different in touch as I touch them in the store. I love the digital and I play it. It was 600 dollars. I don't know why anyone needs a different digital piano to learn and play the piano. There is a difference from an acoustic because it has strings and a digital doesn't. That will always be the difference in the same way that an acoustic weighs a "ton" and will always weigh a ton and a digital will probably get lighter because like computers, the industry will gradually remove the speakers and sell them separately, and reduce the size of the amp and sell that as an option and the piano will be very light because it will be like a computer, just keyboard of keys and everything else is a component.

I guess I don't understand why one digital is that much different than any other in terms of playing the piano - leaving aside the bells and whitsles.

My digitals are 20 years apart, so size and cost, otherwise a digital piano is a digital piano of 88 keys. I can't see any difference worth any more or much money.

Maybe somebody could explain what I can't see or hear in a word or two. I bought a Yam because I recognize the name re motorcycles, amps, etc. Casio I only know as watches from a long time ago, so I personally didn't want the name at any cost, but that is just me.

I mean cars are all different and I understand - and I only owned a pickup, but digital pianos are digital pianos of 88 weighted keys.

And if you tell me, I will go to the piano stores and ask to play them so I can see how different they are.

cheers,