Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum the FIVE TIMES practice rule, from jazzwee´s blog

I again disagree.

I could spend a long time working on one piece to get it absolutely perfect, except there are diminishing returns and an opportunity cost of being able to do something else in that time.

Why do I want to get it uber perfect anyway? I am not a concert pianist, it isn't my bread and butter. I don't play for others and as said I would rather broaden my skills in other places rather than have a super overspecialisation.

A learner here was focusing on a super high level piece and was getting through it slowly.

I too looked at a super difficult piece. I could have gone grinding to get it right. But I spent a year learning other things. I go back to the piece and it is easy.

Justpin, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. The technique described is a way to "learn fast". It has nothing to do with overspecialization or level of the piece.

You decide what you want to learn. What's being discussed is a way to do that with the least amount of effort.

Its the you must be perfect comment that irks me. Different people have different standards.

You can find Joe Hishashi videos where he makes a tiny mistake, Lang lang now and again. Does this mean he's not practiced enough? No it just means he's human.

Justpin, no one is saying that we all have to be 100% perfect all the time - of course not! Everyone makes mistakes!

What we're looking at here is an intense-focus technique that helps you get a certain number of notes down pat during study time, efficiently and effectively.

If I can play a tricky bar 5 times in a row without making a mistake, at a slow speed, chances are pretty strong that I know what I'm supposed to be doing. Then if I can go in cyucles of speeding up and still get it right five times in a row, then I can feel pretty confident that I've done a good job of practicing and that in performance mode I'm probably not going to make a mistake. I might, but I will have reduced the odds significantly.

It is a lot easier to focus briefly on small sections than to try to focus for a long time on a long difficult passage or piece. I'm finally understanding this and that's why I'm keen to try out the ideas expressed in this thread.

And in the end... no need to be irked - no one is insisting that this is the only way to go -it is just something that has worked for some and is being shared in a spirit of helpfulness!

If it isn't your cuppa tea...don't drink it!

Of course, there is the opposite belief that if you can't play it right every time, the music might be too hard for you.

There is a quote I once heard. I don't remember it verbatim, so I will be paraphrasing, but it goes like this: "What is the difference between a good amateur and a true professional virtuoso? The amateur practices until he plays it right. The professional practices until he can't play it wrong."

I posted that quote myself somewhere Of course in theory, any phrase can be played and is within reach in slow motion. However, it would probably not be worth listening to. LOL.

You are definitely correct though. The whole idea is to have on-file a large collection of skills (from the problem focused approach here) and then more complex music can be played without the need for this meticulous exercise.

What the detractors are missing is that once you have acquired a skill at playing "x phrase at 100bpm" then you will never have to repeat this exercise again. Maybe next time it will be "x phrase at 120bpm".

I'm not sure who wouldn't want this. The current unorganized strategy is to play "x piece 500 times" and it still comes out bad. Given that time is always a premium, you would think this is would be a no-brainer since it's a time saver.

Exactly.

Keep in mind two things.

First, when you practice, its like programming a computer. In the computer world, there is an acronym: GIGO: which stands for Garbage in, Garbage out.

By practicing something so that it is perfect, then, later, when you are playing with the burden of in front of other people, or recording, or just the passage of time, you will have a perfect example from which to play, and yes, you will likely make mistakes.

But if your example is one with built-in mistakes or errors, you are starting from a unperfect example, and it usually goes downhill from there.

Ah, there's the rub! You seem to think that most people want to practice correctly. They don't. Most people want to play correctly. The tedium of practicing correctly is so drab and boring that most people cannot stand it. That's why so very few people are at the top of the craft. They're the only ones who can stand it.

And this applies to nearly anything-- schoolwork, sports, reading, writing, public speaking, performing magic tricks.. anything where a skill is required that one does not have. People want to do, not to practice. That's why we have so many, "[x]-step programs to get [insert what it is you want here]" and things like "8 minutes to killer abs!" and Jane Fonda tapes, and p90x, and all those other BS marketing schemes. They prey on this exact mindset. People don't want to change what they do. They only want to see results. And they want, above all, to have fun doing it.

Even your "five times practice rule" falls into this category. (Don't get me wrong--it's a great marketing technique, and I applaud you for it.) People don't want to sit at the piano and play something slowly until they learn it the right way. So, this "quick little technique" starts to get them doing the right things, they think, "hey, it's only five times," and they begin to see drastic improvements. Why? Because they're finally starting to do the right things.

Where I take issue is when people preach that you can become a virtuoso by this method, or that you can be Mr. Olympia doing "Six-Minute Abs", etc. I don't think you took your comments in that direction, so your ideas are going to help people without giving them false hopes. That, I admire.

(This may have rambled a little.. I am doing three things at once right now.)

Hi Derelux,

Perhaps a disclosure is in order. Especially for those who haven't known me before.

I don't sell anything, have no plans to sell anything, and I have no agenda. So anything I've posted anywhere on ABF since 2007 is freely given. Neither do I purport to be a know-it-all (and this doesn't reference your post since you've been very nice ). I'm just documenting my experience which is current and seemingly successful, for me at least). I certainly know my weaknesses and have a lot further to go.

The reference to the above blog post (posted by Marco M without my participation) is but a tool and it's a long (though fun) journey.

I certainly will not want to judge anyone who doesn't like any kind of discipline in their learning style. That's for each one to determine. I only write to my blog and here in various posts because some people seem to find it useful. And fortunately, I enjoy writing it.

I do get asked the questions I posted in my blog a lot (received in PM's). And I thought it wise to just blog a response so I don't have to keep typing over and over.

And these are certainly just my opinions and everyone is free to disagree and I will not take it personally. Also fortunately, I don't offer false hopes since I'm no Horowitz or Keith Jarrett. I'm just a typical late adult beginner that just wanted to get a little better before I get too old, but instead got a lot better.

And of course, I'm a jazz player so my interests may not coincide with all. I just hope I encourage SOME people to dream a little bit and then reach those dreams.

This is, perhaps, what I like the best about your posts. The genuine nature behind what you say, specifically because you're not "selling" anything.

And believe me, I know you've been around. We've talked about other topics over the years. (If anything, I'm the one who disappeared for a couple years.. haha)

I'm glad you didn't take offense by my post. I was trying to talk about two things at once: 1) the BS marketing crap I hate, 2) the great and encouraging advice you've provided to others. It was really tough to lump them together into one post, especially in the midst of many distractions.

Edit: PS- I like jazz. I was once a member of three different jazz groups. (Small stuff, barely got paid enough to put gas in the car, but it was fun.)

I brought up the blog of jazzwee, because I find that he adds some few extra words to known statements. But with this few extra words the statements gain much significance, and therefore the extra words are worth to be spread. By the way, I also read the comments which Bernhard shared. And I like them because of the same reason, they often make to a beginner abstract sounding recommendations become filled with value of benefit.

(EDIT: by the way, does somebody knows what happened to 'bernhard'? He didn´t post for years anymore, over at the pianostreet forums, after having been a so active member there!)

When speaking about practicing a passage 5 times perfectly, I never understood it the way that I would be a fool if I could not reach perfection. It to me clearly is an -understandable- recommendation how to avoid practicing mistakes, and to have a measure at hand based on which I can evaluate myself if I am to speedy in the piece, and also in the journey, while at the same time ensuring that I am not wasting valuable time. Of course there is also my teacher around to guide me, but just not all the time...

Not to worry Derelux. I'm not that sensitive

Now the good news about my practice strategy is that it propelled me to having a successful little jazz quintet and though I'm the leader, I'm the least skilled of the bunch. All the other band members are pros.

But there's something to be said about someone starting here as an adult beginner and now packing up a crowd at a venue. It's like a fairy tale in Piano land, especially at my age!

Nice! The last paying jazz gig for me was around 12 years ago. Best part about that group was, we each played at least one other instrument.. so we used to do a "walking solo" routine, where we'd rotate instruments and solo on each of them. It definitely was a lot of fun, and two of those guys have gone on to do some pretty cool things. I just took a different career path.

Nice but no exceptions I have to stop at 9pm sharp. So what's your advice if you're at the 20th attempt at that time? Of course already dropped tempo many times in the process...

No need to overcomplicate this. Isolate one problem area. Cut it into a small chunk. Maybe it's down to 2 notes (extreme example). I'm sure you can do that perfectly now. Then you can go to sleep because you've achieved something.

EDIT -Hopefully you're thinking about this before 8:59 pm

My advice is to not even get near the 20th attempt. That number comes from somebody else, and I refuted it earlier in this thread.

My advice is to slim the phrase down (and tempo down) to whatever minimum it is that you can practice without error, even, as Jazzwee noted, if that is just two notes. And then do that 5 times. No more...walk away and sleep on it.

If you have dropped the tempo down many times, yet still have problems with it, the piece or section might be above your present ability, and/or it might be too long a phrase to practice in a chunk.

Its like chewing and swallowing food...if you choke on it, its too big a mouthful, or not chewed well enough.

There must be something in the water that makes this concept hard to grasp.

I have had several adult students say they "finally understood" what I mean by this style of practice.

This after a year or two or, in one case, three years of me preaching this, and me giving them handouts on it, and demonstrating it over and over, etc.

And there are other students who never get it. I don't understand why...its a mystery.

The only explanation I have is that it is counter-intuitive to how we accomplish many tasks. Need to stack 50 bricks? You don't stack one and go to sleep and the remaining bricks stack up by themselves! Instead, the more you stack and the faster you stack, the sooner the job gets done, and it stays done.

Apply that to piano practice, and you get over-practicing at too fast a tempo that is likely filled with errors.

This style of piano learning we are discussing here is a different concept completely from completing everyday tasks.

Overpracticing with errors is like trying to stack bricks by throwing them from ten feet away. You'll end up with a pile and tired arms, but never a stack of bricks.

Several years ago, I found PianoStreet and Bernhard's ideas amd incorporated them into my practice routine (and wrote several posts here as well, lost in the search engine now). One of the things I did was to go out and buy a set of dice (because they are square and won't roll off the piano). I have a little box on my piano with 10 dice. When I focus in on a specific phrase or am trying to get a new fingering into my brain/fingers (or, trying to change already established fingering) I use the dice, that way I don't have to count how many repetitions I've done. I play the section once, if it's correct, I move a die out of the box. Repeat either until I run out of dice (IOW 10x) or maybe 5-7 dice/times (depending on whether it feels really easy or not). If I make mistakes I either put all the dice back and start over, or I'll shorten the section.

This is not the only way I ever practice, but it's one trick that has made it possible for me to conquer pieces that otherwise would seem overwhelmingly hard. "Just these two measures, 7 times" makes even something very challenging seem do-able.