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Occasionally, I have to tune for hard-core jazz pianists. I have had good luck with several temperaments besides ET...

Moscow EBPT of 1895
EBVT3

I'm thinking that a Neidhardt would also make a good choice as well.

Does anyone have suggestions as to any other good choices for both solo piano and piano as part of an ensemble?

Thanks,
-Joe

For the few jazz pianists that I have worked for they are the most critical.
The way they use the fast beating intervals, if they did not progress smoothly they would be sure to notice.
I had not considered an unequal temperament.

not suiteable for modern jazz harmony in my opinion.

Too much "suggested harmonies" the skeleton have to be really clean

Hi Gene and Isaac,

It seems unanimous. ET only.

Thanks for the advice

-Joe

Not so fast! I have a number of non-classical musicians that have lost all interest in ET. Jazzers are among them.
Songwriters have also been drawn to the variety found in the WT's I sell. I use a Coleman temperament, which progresses evenly from a 10 cent third at C-E to a 17 cent third at F#-A#. Nothing very far off the norm, but there is a distinctly different feel to the piano, and many players respond to it in a very positive way.

For any pianist that rarely ventures beyond 4 sharps or flats, the WT's generate less dissonance throughout the music, so there is no reason to avoid them if you have a tech that knows what they are doing.
Regards,

Hello Ed,

Are you using the Coleman 10?

According to the Rollingball site: "...Coleman decided to make the Coleman 10 have 1/2 the deviation values of the Coleman 11 just in case someone wants an even milder temperament."

I checked the offsets at TuneLabWorld.com. They don't have them for the 10, but they do have them for the 11. So, I would just divide the offsets for the 11 by 2?

Also according to the Rollingball.com site, the 11 offsets A by 1.0 cents. Would this be unnecessary with the 10?

Thank you for the advice.

Thanks,
-Joe

I think the jazz folks are all about color, surprise, inspiration. The unequal temperaments I have heard are delightful. I'm very interested in them.

Forrest

Greetings,
I use the Coleman 11 more than almost anything, but you can use half values to get an even milder form. The 1 cent correction isn't really necessary, as most pianos move this much in the time it takes to get them tuned.
Regards,

Thank you !

Far too many things in jazz piano for a listener to be immersed in for a mild deviation in temperament to be noticed IMHO. All the serious jazz pianists I know like a nice crisp ET with some extra stretch and sparkle in the treble and the linear smooth shifts that ET produces...they are not puffing out out Clair de lune.

Greetings,
We have very different experiences. All of my customers have, by now, played on and listened to a variety of WT's. (I have them spread all over town, in and out of professional venues). Half the jazzers I deal with really like the feel of a mild WT, a fourth hate it, and a fourth really can't tell much difference. These are people that listen pretty closely.
ET has its own sound, but one cannot completely discern (grok) it until there is something different heard to compare. I had tuned strict ET professionally for years when I listened to my first WT. ET never sounded the same, after that. It's good, it's usable, but it is only one sound, and pianos, I have learned, can create totally different sounds and moods when the harmony is not homogenized.

If I want the ET sound in a WT, I can play in A or Eb, they both feel about the same as ET. The V is a little more restless than the I or IV in the former, whereas it is more relaxed in the latter. Not that anybody I have ever encountered could tell if a piano was tuned in WT rather than ET when listening to something played in either of these two keys. Compare this to say, the key of B, in which the IV is the screamer, to use one jazzer's word. Or a key like F#, which never lets up, but produces a very murky tension, etc. This is what the songwriters and jazz players talk like when they talk about the tuning difference.

Those without the comparison in their ears don't talk about it at all.
Regards

Ed, I can certainly understand that some jazz artists are more experimental as far as temperaments go. It certainly would be a benefit for a tech to have UT's available in their skill set to address this for these artists. Unfortunately an ugly head always appears with UT's as soon as one begins to restrict what keys to play in. Not all artists are comfortable shifting their repertoir from key to key with this in mind, especially when accompanied by other musicians. Vocalist accompanyment is especially sensative to key signature as are some fixed pitch instruments. This is the single greatest benefit of ET in that a specific sound or feel (in regards to the temperament)to the music gets transmitted universally in a similar fashion in every key. Does an artist need the hassle of transcribing the music to get what they want? No. Can they learn/practice and perfom in a key that the peice was originally intended to be played. Yes. UT's throw a proverbial wrench into this freedom. Some artists can work around it, some can even claim to benefit from it....but don't kid yourself in the notion that ET has been universally adopted and accepted for the last near century because it has shortcomings that outweigh its benefits. Musicians are not in the dark on this.

It might help to differentiate between strengths of temperaments - the Rollingball site is valuable for this! The major thirds in ET are almost 14 cents from pure...

A "full strength" circulating temperament will limit the widest thirds to around 21 cents from pure. While each key is still usable, the contrast might be a bit much for modern ears to accept, even though there are players that want that type of contrast.

The temperaments that Ed were referring to limit the widest thirds to about 17 cents from pure, just 3 more cents than ET. This level seems to be the threshold for 'modern ears' to realize that something might be different, without really being able to articulate the difference without training.

The 'stealth' temperaments work in the range of the widest third being around 15-16 cents wide of pure.

Hey Joe,

I think you will find the ET only advice to be unanimous among many. It is what they believe. There is only one way to tune a piano! I did not vote, however.

Unfortunately, that single minded goal and belief has lead to quite the opposite result in all too many cases. I won't say now what that result is because it always provokes too much anger and resentment. I just know it to be so very true in so many instances.

I have tuned pianos for Jazz artists the past 24 years in anything but ET and never had a complaint, much less a comment such as, "Hey these thirds are all uneven!, what's going on here?"

Even the esteemed Steinway technician for Vladimir Horowitz was known to say, "No artist ever asked me or complained about uneven thirds". Yet, that technician only ever claimed to tune ET.

My history of tuning non-equal temperaments for Jazz artists alone, aside from any other kind of music or musicians goes back quite far. Dave Brubeck, Fats Domino, Ray Charles, Mose Allison, Lyle Mays and many others associated with famous named Jazz artists or groups could go on indefinitely.

Roscoe Mitchell, a Madison, WI based Avant-Guard composer and Jazz artist has been my customer since 1978. I tuned two pianos for his group for a 2007 CD recording in the EBVT III. Joan Wildman, a UW-Madison retired Professor of Jazz Piano Performance has been a client of mine for over 20 years. I have never tuned her piano in ET! I tuned it yesterday for a recording session in my usual EBVT III. She is still a leading voice in our community regarding the progressive movement in music. Nothing in her work requires ET.

Patrick Wingren who is a Professor of Jazz performance at Jacobstad, Finland and and RPT and now PTG Certified Tuning Examiner (an occasional contributor here) also uses non-equal temperaments.

A local colleague of mine has used non-equal temperaments for some 30 years in salon concerts at his dealership. These concerts include both classical music and Jazz.

The "What do ya know?" show which usually emanates from Madison and features local Jazz artist, John Thulin, has never been tuned in ET!

If it were true that Jazz somehow required ET, all of these examples would tend to prove that notion to be completely false, which it is.

To answer your original question, I suggest you try the 1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament. You will find all 4ths & 5ths to sound virtually the same as they do in ET but you will also find the key color you are looking for.

I think the question is like asking what is the best digital piano for Monteverdi.

Very interesting response.

Thank you Bill.


This quote fro you is particularly interesting:
Even the esteemed Steinway technician for Vladimir Horowitz was known to say, "No artist ever asked me or complained about uneven thirds". Yet, that technician only ever claimed to tune ET.

If it's who I think it is, I have his book

It's interesting that you suggest the 1/9th CM over the 1/10th CM?

I may get a chance to try 1/9CM out later this week. I have a client that plays everything from Bach to jazz to modern experimental music. We spent considerable time on the phone this evening discussing UTs. I even referred him to the rollingball.com site.

For Bill and/or anyone else, would it be appropriate for Bach to be played in 1/9CM or 1/10CM? If ET is OK for Bach, it would seem to me that a 1/9CM or 1/10CM would be at least as appropriate. Or, would tuning this way ruin the effect of J.S.Bach's music?

Bill, I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in on this. I know you are one of the great authorities on UTs.

Thanks,
-Joe

Actually, never mind the question re Modified Meantone and Bach.

There are recordings available on YouTube of Serkin playing Bach. Since he uses a modified meantone...

Well, if using a modified meantone for Bach is good enough for him, then...

Thanks,
-Joe

Equal temperament is a modified meantone, and meantone is a modified equal temperament!

Joe,

I think you'll like what you hear in the 1/9 Comma Meantone. I use it for cocktail lounge pianos. There is one church sanctuary piano I use it for where the music director likes key color and contrast but has a lower threshold for harshness than most people.

Back when we were discussing these ultra mild meantones in September, I asked Jason Kanter to graph them. He promised to do so and also send me some other enlightening information but he said he was quite busy at the moment. Unfortunately, he has not come through on that yet.

I have never tried the 1/10 Comma Meantone because my ETD, the SAT IV will only accept tenths deviations rather than hundredths. I can't imagine it sounding much different from ET. Did you find any particular value in it?

Even the version of 1/9 Comma Meantone that I use is a rounded off type. It is a -2.4 cent 5ths whereas a true 1/9th has some smaller numbers.

When I tune the 1/7 Comma Meantone, I simply program -3.0 5ths which is quite easy to do. At one time, I asked Jason Kanter to graph both the -3.0 5ths and a true 1/7 CMT and the results were essentially identical. I figured that the same would be true for -2.4 cent 5ths vs. true 1/9 CMT.

The 1/9 CMT is very much along the lines of the other very mild WT's that Ron and Ed have mentioned. The largest deviation from ET is +2.4 cents. The widest M3 is +17.2 cents. The narrowest is +12 cents. The "wolf" 5th is the same amount wide as all other 5ths are narrow.

1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament

C:+1.2
C#:-1.6
D:+0.4
D#:+2.4
E:-0.4
F:+1.6
F#:-1.2
G:+0.8
G#:-2.0
A: 0.0
A#:+2.0
B:-0.8

Quote:
I have never tried the 1/10 Comma Meantone because my ETD, the SAT IV will only accept tenths deviations rather than hundredths. I can't imagine it sounding much different from ET. Did you find any particular value in it?

It's funny you should ask that today

I just returned from doing a free tuning for the dealership I tune for. The sold a Story & Clark console piano... the very same one I discussed in a thread a while back where I tuned one piano in EBVT3, one in Moscow's EBPT, and one in 1/10 CM. If you remember, the jazz player loved the other 2, but disliked the 1/10 CM.

Well, the new owners said they purchased the S&C because of its rich, warm sound. It stood out. I explained the difference between ET and a very mild MT, and they decided they wanted to tune it today continuing with the 1/10 CM.

The piano does have a rich, warm sound. I have tuned quite a few S&C consoles, and I do not believe I have ever heard one sound nicer. Even the bass was warm, but it still had guts when you needed it.

I believe that the 1/10 CM absolutely did affect the resonance of the instrument.

I don't know if this will make any sense. The way I see it, if ET is refined white sugar, the 1/10CM is light brown sugar. It brings some new flavor, but not too much. Thank you so very much for telling me about the 1/10 CM

Tomorrow, I will suggest the 1/9 CM as an alternative to the customer we discussed before. I will also mention the 1/7 CM that Serkin likes. (You discussed it here with offsets http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1443771/)

Thanks again for you time and expertise
-Joe