2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Advanced Piano Tricks
Advanced Piano Tricks
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
100 members (accordeur, Animisha, AnnaF, anamnesis, 36251, An Old Square, AndreaH, Albertan, 21 invisible), 1,242 guests, and 383 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
Originally Posted by Numerian
Good for you to point out possible changes in Horowitz's hearing.


OK...

But hearing and perception aside, as his piano still had to carry piano sound in a large concert venue, the loss of mass did not in and of itself preclude the instrument from having sufficient power to do what it needed to do for the audience...no?

Jim Ialeggio



Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
Jim's observation is the same that I have experienced in the 30 years since I developed "Light Hammer Tone Regulation" protocols.

I have drilled lightening holes in concert grand keys just like the OP is inquiring about. They do help a little but nothing like dealing with the hammer weight.

Horowitz would have sounded like Horowitz on any piano. His sound, like other great pianists, is NOT a function of the piano. His comfort and confidence IS. Mr. Mohr used no techniques on Horowitz's piano that have not been used on other pianos by other technicians, at least that was my observation and what Mr. Mohr told me.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
I suspect that Horowitz was playing this piano with a heavier action in the 1940's,

I think you are right Ed and I have heard the same things you describe.
Horowits would not play in Germany after the WW2, but from old journal films I have seen him picking out a new Steinway D in the Hamburg factory. This was a few years after the war.
Looked like he played with great joy, and those pianos were the standard D's in the showroom.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 145
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 145
From the regulation parameters Ed Foote mentioned earlier in this post the setting of the jack and the drop seem the most notable since these would remove points of resistance.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,681
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,681
Do the key levers really need to be as strong as they are? Correct me if I'm wrong, but those thick, solid pieces of wood seem to me to be a bit over-engineered for the stress encountered while playing.
____________________________________________________________________________________
In my opinion they are under-engineered. On a SS-D they will flex quite a bit because of their length, especially in the bass. At some point with harder playing, there is no increase in power or volume because of flex in the keys and hammer shanks.
Maybe one day Bruce Clark will design a key that is similar to his hammer shanks in this respect.


RPT
PTG Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,682
W
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,682
Quote
Do the key levers really need to be as strong as they are?

See this post.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
R
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Jim's observation is the same that I have experienced in the 30 years since I developed "Light Hammer Tone Regulation" protocols.
I have drilled lightening holes in concert grand keys just like the OP is inquiring about. They do help a little but nothing like dealing with the hammer weight.

This sounds very interesting. Can you tell us a bit more about what you do to lighten hammers? Do you replace the hammers altogether with smaller ones, or do you modify existing hammers to lighten them, and how?

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
renenkel,
A full description of the method would be a book length post. I have written a book titled "The Educated Piano" which details the procedure. It is intended for Technicians. For a DYI the process and tools required are beyond what should be attempted except by the most implacable fools. I still have copies of the book for sale, but not many.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,090
I should add that Horowitz being comfortable at his piano, helped HIM be Horowitz.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
R
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
[Re: Horowitz piano] What I found was that the hammer blow was near 1 5/8", let-off was at the string, drop was nearly as close. Springs were normal to weak, dip was shallow, I would guess .360". Hammers were light,though I didn't weigh them. Dampers lifted extremely late. Repetition levers were set so that the jacks barely touched the knuckle and the jacks were slightly proximal to the normal alignment. Checking was exremely high.

Ed, does "proximal" mean closer to the hammer pivot side of the knuckle than usual?

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,253
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,253
Originally Posted by renenkel
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
[Re: Horowitz piano] What I found was that the hammer blow was near 1 5/8", let-off was at the string, drop was nearly as close. Springs were normal to weak, dip was shallow, I would guess .360". Hammers were light,though I didn't weigh them. Dampers lifted extremely late. Repetition levers were set so that the jacks barely touched the knuckle and the jacks were slightly proximal to the normal alignment. Checking was exremely high.

Ed, does "proximal" mean closer to the hammer pivot side of the knuckle than usual?


Greetings,
Proximal means closest to the player, distal (distance) refers to the opposite. The proximal side of the jack doesn't touch anything but the stop felt, and the distal edge of the jack aligns with the distal edge of the knuckle's core, etc.

By setting the jack closer to the performer, (proximally), the process of escapement is shortened, ( assuming a beginning point as that point at which the tender touches the pad and/or drop screw touches the drop pad), and greater danger of it skipping out under a ff blow. It is a trade-off, (like the mix in a carburetor ie, maximum response is right next to engine failure), The farther proximal they are moved, the more consistent the tech has to be, or the law of averages will visit, usually during a climatic moment in performance, and a great, crashing, note will be missing. People remember that for a lifetime. DAMHIK
Regards,

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
and the leverage at the beginning of the stroke is higher. Cheating jacks can be tested once, twice, etc..

<it is amazing how much we can interfere with hammer acceleration, just with different type of jack location.

Last edited by Olek; 02/25/13 07:10 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
R
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
The farther proximal [the jacks] are moved, the more consistent the tech has to be, or the law of averages will visit, usually during a climatic moment in performance, and a great, crashing, note will be missing. People remember that for a lifetime. DAMHIK

DAMHIK? Wow, sounds scary! :-) Hope you weren't working for Horowitz at the time! :-) :-)

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Here you can hear how is the sound with light hammers :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXUgPVjnD0&feature=share&list=PL550F1747A716EEA7


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pleyel 1846 advice on purchase please!
by AnnaF - 01/27/22 09:33 AM
How do I find current selling price for my piano?
by AndreaH - 01/27/22 09:11 AM
An Interesting day recording . .
by peterws - 01/27/22 08:46 AM
High pitch ringing on mi3
by elmarmarmar - 01/27/22 08:41 AM
ARSM pieces
by Chrisandellie - 01/27/22 08:25 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics211,380
Posts3,164,405
Members104,186
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5