Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
133 registered members (Adam Malone, Adypiano, ando, alexcawley, 36251, 32 invisible), 1,754 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2037412 - 02/22/13 10:21 AM How does a coil setter/tightener actually work?  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
I've been wondering about tools such as Schaff's "coil tightener" (3155)
[Linked Image]

and "coil setter" (175)
[Linked Image].

The coil tightener has a half cut-out that, as far as I can see, fits around the coils, while the tuning pin fits into the hole. I've seen such a tool in action, e.g. in the following video, at 2:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK7tkEpEB9g&list=PL550F1747A716EEA7&index=33
The technician hammers on the tool, but I cannot see how the hammer blow would actually be transferred to the coils, because the tool fits around the outside of the coils. It doesn't rest on the top-most coil.

Similarly, I understand that Schaff's coil setter, with an internal diameter of 5/16", does not rest on the top coil, but actually fits over the coils. Sure, it would eliminate overlapping coils, but I can't see it actually snugging up the coils against each other, from the top down.

So what do these tools actually do? What's the use in hammering them, if they don't transfer the blow to the coils?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2037418 - 02/22/13 10:38 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote
Similarly, I understand that Schaff's coil setter, with an internal diameter of 5/16", does not rest on the top coil, but actually fits over the coils. Sure, it would eliminate overlapping coils, but I can't see it actually snugging up the coils against each other, from the top down. - Mark R.

Hi Mark - the coil tightener actually goes under the coil. A slide hammer is then used to tighten up the coil going up. Sometimes it's hard to get the tool in place in between tightly spaced pins, but when it does go in place it works really well. It doesn't touch the plate, so no marks are made in the gold paint.

The only problem I've had is that that the tool is prone to cracking. I've gone through 3 or 4 of them over the years.

I don't know about the other tool. I've got one that I inherited from my dad, but I've never used it. Chuck

Last edited by Chuck Behm; 02/22/13 10:38 AM.

Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
#2037430 - 02/22/13 11:26 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,677
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,677
Tennessee
Greetings,
If one strings without a protruding becket, the technique for the most stable coils is to wind them on the pin as tightly as possible, and make sure that they are above the becket hole on the "non-entry' side of the pin. After chipping the strings to up near pitch, the coil setter is used to tap the coil down, leveling it as it tightens the coils against each other. If you want your stringing to be even, this step is just as important as leaving all the pins at the same height.
Once the coils are snugged up, there is still a lot of slack in them, as the string tension is held increasingly by friction on the pin rather than elastic stress of the wire beyond the first coil. The coil tightener has a internal "cone" shape that is designed to mash the top coil inwards, flattening the bend of the becket, and moving some of the top-string's tension farther up into the coil.

In theory, the becket will never see as much tension as the speaking length, since the coils friction lessens the strain, and it isn't possible to put enough tension in the string to bring the top coil's tension up to speaking length tension without breaking the string. There is still anywhere from 100 -200 cents of slack in three coils when the string is brought up to pitch. This will either "bleed" down during the first 5 years of tension, or it can be greatly accelerated with the use of a small pair of Vise-Grip pliers with a small concavity ground on their jaws.

I use mine by setting the grips so that it is just short of locking, which gives me the greatest leverage. I squeeze them down so that they flatten the becket into the hole, and then with heavy pressure still on the coil, I twist the counter clockwise, massaging the coil in a flattening direction. This will usually drop the note by at least 100-200 cents, greatly shortening the break-in period of a new string.
Regards,

#2037456 - 02/22/13 12:27 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
...and if left undone, the resulting drop in pitch over the first few years is what so many people think is "the strings stretching".

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2037482 - 02/22/13 01:08 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,929
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,929
Oakland
I use #171 by putting it over the coil and wobbling it around the pin, which pushed the coil closer to the pin. Sometimes I will use it to tap on the top of the coil to push it down, but the tool that I use for that is #3101 (on the previous page), which has a slide hammer which taps down or pulls up. I have modified mine by grinding the sides of it off so it fits better between the pins. Actually, I would like to have another tip on it that would just be a stringing hook, but the proper hardening and tempering is difficult.

Stringing hooks and coil lifters are the main tools that I use. #3101 is used to take out the looseness in the coils that is left when you do the final tightening.


Semipro Tech
#2037553 - 02/22/13 03:46 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks for all the replies.

Dan, I believe you had the two tools of my opening post confused with the impact coil lifter, Schaff tool no. 3101. But not to worry.

Ed, I didn't know that the inside of a coil tightener is conical. That clarifies things a lot.

BDB, you've mentioned your modification of 3101 before. I'd be very interested in one or two pictures, if you have the time to make some.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#2037564 - 02/22/13 04:15 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada


Ah, I don't think I am in this one Mark. Maybe Chuck you were addressing?


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2037577 - 02/22/13 04:43 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada
[Linked Image]

Has anybody used the coil lifter that Bolduc sells?


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#2037581 - 02/22/13 04:51 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#2037586 - 02/22/13 04:59 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Supply
...and if left undone, the resulting drop in pitch over the first few years is what so many people think is "the strings stretching".


Jurgen , I tested how much the wire move if the coil is worked with plier, but after my usual way, with becket well inserted.

Did not notice a huge drop , you stated 1/4 tone, not what I experienced.

However, once the piano is up to pitch and tuned , coil setting , from below and/or above, lower the pitch and strenghten /clear the tone.

Even if the coils have been set and hammered once at the end of the stringing job.


Last edited by Olek; 02/22/13 05:51 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2037590 - 02/22/13 05:07 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos


Ah, I don't think I am in this one Mark. Maybe Chuck you were addressing?


Quite right, my apologies, Dan.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#2037597 - 02/22/13 05:20 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
Hey Mark - I'm indeed mixing up my tools! I looked at the picture you posted and wondered why it didn't show the rest of it! Well, that explains it. (Someday down the road when you're in your 7th decade you'll understand.) Sorry about the confusion.

The impact coil tightener (or slide hammer, as I always called it) is the tool of choice in my opinion. The one I have was purchased from Schaff in the early '70's and has a bigger weight on it than the new ones the sell. That and a pair of pliers to squeeze the beckett in solid is all you need in most cases to make a really tight, attractive coil. Oh, and a mallet and a flat-bladed medium sized screwdriver to tap down from the top if need be. Chuck


Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
#2037611 - 02/22/13 05:49 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Chuck Behm, CPT-E]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Chuck Behm
Quote
Similarly, I understand that Schaff's coil setter, with an internal diameter of 5/16", does not rest on the top coil, but actually fits over the coils. Sure, it would eliminate overlapping coils, but I can't see it actually snugging up the coils against each other, from the top down. - Mark R.

Hi Mark - the coil tightener actually goes under the coil. A slide hammer is then used to tighten up the coil going up. Sometimes it's hard to get the tool in place in between tightly spaced pins, but when it does go in place it works really well. It doesn't touch the plate, so no marks are made in the gold paint.

The only problem I've had is that that the tool is prone to cracking. I've gone through 3 or 4 of them over the years.

I don't know about the other tool. I've got one that I inherited from my dad, but I've never used it. Chuck


The other tool is to break the becket, it works but I dont like too much the process (to take out the strings)

A good hammer stroke and the becket is broke


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2037662 - 02/22/13 07:28 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
A string hook and/or lifter, and a brass tipped blade similar to a flat screwdriver is all I've ever used and the coils end up level and tight. Paying attention to how the coils first take on the pin greatly reduces any massaging needed later. Really, is there a need for a better mousetrap?


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#2037736 - 02/22/13 10:30 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Chuck Behm, CPT-E]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
Originally Posted by Chuck Behm
[
... I don't know about the other tool. I've got one that I inherited from my dad, but I've never used it. Chuck
'Funny. I inherited the same tool from MY Dad, and finally put it to use as a pin driver with my air hammer. I put a soft steel screw up in it with the head pointing outward. After a few blows the screw head conformed to the shape of the tuning pin top and I had a driver that wouldn't mar the pin. There are probably more elegant ways to do that, but it works for me.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2037819 - 02/23/13 05:03 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
the lighter jab on the coils when the note is tuned is a big help to raise power and clean the tone.

If possible with an inertia coil lifter, but the one I have is not always thin enough to go between the coils.

SO there is some loss only due to the lower coil opening when the piano is bring to pitch and tuned. (plus possibly some stretch of the wire when the coil is impacted.

Just try it for yourself and tell us what you find.





Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2037820 - 02/23/13 05:04 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: David Jenson]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Chuck Behm
[
... I don't know about the other tool. I've got one that I inherited from my dad, but I've never used it. Chuck
'Funny. I inherited the same tool from MY Dad, and finally put it to use as a pin driver with my air hammer. I put a soft steel screw up in it with the head pointing outward. After a few blows the screw head conformed to the shape of the tuning pin top and I had a driver that wouldn't mar the pin. There are probably more elegant ways to do that, but it works for me.


I have one I baught as a "coil becket breaker", possibly from Pianotek, I dont remind.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2038622 - 02/24/13 07:24 PM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,929
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,929
Oakland
Here is a drawing of the material I took off the slide hammer tool:

[Linked Image]

The area removed is outlined in red.


Semipro Tech
#2038790 - 02/25/13 03:46 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Ah, thanks for taking the time, BDB! I'll keep that in mind if (or when) I place my next order on Schaff.

I'm no stranger to taking my grinder to Schaff's tools. Their bent backcheck regulator, # 472, did not fit in-between the backcheck and bridle wires of a single piano I tried it on, until I ground away most of the metal between the slots.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#2038797 - 02/25/13 03:56 AM Re: How does a coil setter/tightener actually work? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Mark R.
I've been wondering about tools such as Schaff's "coil tightener" (3155)
[Linked Image]

and "coil setter" (175)
[Linked Image].

The coil tightener has a half cut-out that, as far as I can see, fits around the coils, while the tuning pin fits into the hole. I've seen such a tool in action, e.g. in the following video, at 2:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK7tkEpEB9g&list=PL550F1747A716EEA7&index=33
The technician hammers on the tool, but I cannot see how the hammer blow would actually be transferred to the coils, because the tool fits around the outside of the coils. It doesn't rest on the top-most coil.

Similarly, I understand that Schaff's coil setter, with an internal diameter of 5/16", does not rest on the top coil, but actually fits over the coils. Sure, it would eliminate overlapping coils, but I can't see it actually snugging up the coils against each other, from the top down.

So what do these tools actually do? What's the use in hammering them, if they don't transfer the blow to the coils?


You can see what the HellerBass package is used for.

The video shows how a guy with perfect self control can install new strings. wink The one that are emotive use finger and palm protection, or some product on hands to avoid perspiration (as he probably does).

One have to have an extra strong/supple back and bone for such kind of jobs.


Last edited by Olek; 02/25/13 04:03 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Moderated by  Piano World 

UK Members
Please check in
UK Members & Friends
Checking on our members and friends from the UK. Please Check In When Able
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
pain . . .
by unkabin. 05/24/17 02:01 PM
Roland FP 50 - Recording
by hyena. 05/24/17 11:29 AM
1989 Yamaha G2R Grand Piano
by Darrel. 05/24/17 10:35 AM
Review of Pollini and Perahia at Carnegie
by pianoloverus. 05/24/17 08:00 AM
Practicing scales plus.
by happyhacker. 05/24/17 05:08 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,857
Posts2,629,387
Members87,864
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0