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When's the last time you sent a student to Panel? I paid more than that when I did Panel.

I apologize. I confused you with ezpiano.org.

aznpiano, ezpiano ...

I am not lying AZN, check this link yourself. This link includes all the state fee. Each branch will add on their on branch fee and each teacher will add on their own teacher fee to cover "non-involvement fee".

So, if you pay more than this when you did Panel, your teacher probably include "non-involvement fee" in your fee, that is why you are paying more.

So, when is the last time you send students to panel? Is this not what you pay? according to the link I provided?

According to the link you posted, the $65 only covers the state fee, not the branch panel surcharge mentioned at the top of the form or the $25 regional surcharge listed at the bottom.

Hi Hippido! I like your screen name, it makes me happy when I try to pronounce it.

I have two friendly questions here and later I have some feedback to your four points.

Q1: You said you are not a big fan of the music schools, but you just list four points that why you think music schools are good. So, could you share with us your reasons of not being a big fan of the music schools?

Q2: You think music schools serve their purposes for some parents, ones like you 4 years ago. Can you elaborate to compare what was your mindset four years ago and now? Later, can you tell us what makes you change?

Here is your four points and my feedback for it


Yes, I agree with you that this is very convenient. IMT could not do that.

I think this is the one that IMT cannot measure up to music schools. However, I think two months off for maternity leave is too long. I can only imagine myself take 2 to 4 weeks off.


Actually, IMT (independent music teacher) could do this too. I have teacher/parents conference every semester where I meet only with parents without children to give them my most honest feedback about their childen’s progress. I am sure your current IMT that you followed from music school is giving you the evaluation for progress at least every year, right?


To be honest, any good to excellent teacher should provide this service. This service is not only provided by music schools. Every month I send out report card my emails so that parents know exactly at what point their children are. I am sure your current IMT is providing you a progress report with concretely measure, right?



Hey Hippodido! You hit the right point! I am not against commercial schools either! In fact I think Opus119 in Irvine is doing a great job in assisting piano students and piano teachers. I am looking up to them. What we need is ethical and keeps students’ interest above everything else. However, same as Kevin, I started to think that less people care about ethics and moral than I had originally imagined. Especially those who think commercial music school could offer such advantage to them that IMT can’t and not care about what kind of cost or cause behind the screen. Just like what Keystring PM me: There is crookedness in all professions. But would we do something about it or just let it happen?

Yes Kreisler you are right. The panel fee is actually...
state fee $65 + branch fee $25 + teacher fee $X = $90 + $X (only if I know what is X then I can tell you what is the answer)

The rest of the fee, for example Level 6 is....
state fee $40 + branch fee $8 + teacher fee $Y = $48 + $Y

When I provide the list fee, I meant it is only for state fee. My branch charge $8 only for each student, I never been to another branch other than my current branch since I started teaching, so, I am not sure if other branch is charging a different branch fee.

So, Panel has a higher branch fee than the rest of the levels. I am right, ANZ is not wrong either.

That is okay Journey! So, did you glance through all the posts and decide that I call Tim "gullible", "easily deceived" and "not interest in quality"? Or, you actually "read" it?

Well, good luck with that...

No problem. Someone in my family only took two weeks off and she was C-section! Don't worry, I am a workaholic I will be bored to death if I stay home for 2 months.

What a thread. I didn't know piano teachers were so vicious.

For my part, I take lessons at a strip mall school. My teacher is a piano performance major at a local conservatory, the pianos are new and very well maintained Kawais. I've never purchased music from them or been pressured to do so.

As for the quality of instruction, I don't know since I've only had one teacher. But I do notice that one of the private Irvine teachers on this thread is teaching kids to use pedal with Bach. Even I know that's wrong.

Part of the reason teachers get so vicious is that in our industry, clients tend to ignore credentialing and certification.

In almost every other industry - healthcare, education, accounting, automotive repair, counseling, even yoga and pilates - people tend to check the credentials of people they go to.

Consider your own teacher, a "performance major at a local conservatory." Would you trust your taxes with an "accounting major at a local college?" Probably not. There is a perception among the public that music teachers don't need the same degree of qualification that other professionals do.

So unlike accountants and yoga instructors, music teachers have to compete with people who have no credentials and less experience, in part because clients are often more responsive to price and marketing savvy than credentials and experience.

As a result, qualified and experienced teachers feel a lot of frustration, and that can lead to some pretty vicious behavior.

Another part of the problem is that viable business models for teaching are elusive. In a way, this mirrors law and healthcare. Group practices are becoming the norm for physicians and attorneys because solo practices can't make enough money in a lot of markets. A high client volume helps keep the lights on. Many physicians are under tremendous pressure to see a LOT of patients. Attorneys end up being selective about their clientele and charge a very high hourly rate.

Similarly, music studios find it easier to keep the lights on if they can serve as many clients as possible. Since it's difficult to shorten a meeting to 10-15 minutes (like a physician) or command a high hourly rate (like an attorney), studio owners often end up hiring cheap labor, which often means hiring teachers who are willing to work for peanuts, often students or people just teaching part time.)

So...those are some random thoughts for now. I find this a rather fascinating thread. I'm pretty lucky here in the midwest. When I moved here, the local teachers were welcoming, referred students to me, and have been very supportive. There are a variety of business models here in town. I teach at home and as an independent contractor at a local music retailer. (I also do a ton of freelance accompanying and do adjunct work at a college.) There's also a non-profit pre-college conservatory in the area (an excellent Suzuki school), a preparatory program at the local university, and a smattering of independent music teachers.

Quite a few professional pianists use pedal while playing Bach, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Kreisler, thanks for helping us see this little tempest in a broader light, and it's great to hear that in your Iowa community the outlook is healthier and mutually supportive.

Thank you Kreisler for explaining why would a piano teacher get vicious. However, that is not the reason why I get vicious (if that comment is for me, by the way, I am not offended by it)

I think Plowboy has his right to hire whoever he thinks is suitable for him. If he thinks a music performance major in local conservatory is good enough for him, it is his money, I am not against it, I think it is totally fine as everyone has their right to hire anyone.

The part that makes me uncomfortable is when the dishonest director comes into the picture. Let’s say if parents are informed that Teacher C and D do not have MTAC member by the director, and still decide to hire them, it is really parent’s choice. In most case just like what ANZ describe, the fact of Teacher C and D is not MTAC member is covered up by Teacher A and B by using A and B’s name to register for CM test.

If I have to compete with teachers who do not have Bachelor Degree in music, who charged less than me, that is my problem, I choose this line of work I should be aware of people do not treat piano teachers the same they treat doctors and lawyers.

However, if I have to compete “FAKE-MTAC members” that cover up by crooked and dishonest school director, that is where my vicious comes from.

Gentle to the good, vicious to the crooked! (Do they rhyme?)

Wasn't talking about you at all, just making general comments.

And I do know what you mean about ethics issues regarding competitions and other adjudicated events. In that case, ethics boards are important.

I don't know MTAC well, but here, if a teacher was circumventing membership by entering students under another teacher's name (and yes, it's happened), anyone can request that the ethics committee for our state organization look into it. In that case, all involved teachers could be placed on probation and the students could be disqualified. We also met last year as a group to clarify what was considered ethical marketing practices. We use MTNA's guidelines, and they seem to cover the bases pretty well.

That being said, no system is perfect, and there will always be a teacher here and there who get away with murder, but generally speaking, our state does pretty good job of keeping the community civil.

No problem at all. I was referring to plowboy if his vicious comment is towards me, and again, I am not offended by it, I think I am vicious!

That's an interesting idea.

Kreisler, you make a lot of good points in your posts.

My profession is highly credentialed. What I've come to discover is that, in some cases, people who are highly credentialed are very accomplished at becoming highly credentialed and nothing else. Credentials aren't necessarily any sort of guarantee of competence.



Andras Schiff does!

ezpiano, I apologize if I was vicious to you. Not my intent, sorry. I do believe that the website that started this comes across as slimy and unethical, whatever its intent was.

Gary

No Problem PlowBoy.
I think I am vicious, so, not your problem. No need to apologize. Even if your comments is towards me, I am fine by it because you are right!



In another thread, we talked about how some graduate students are better lecturer than some tenure professors at college. So, I am totally agree with you!

I think there are young teachers who is better than old teacher.
I think there are Bachelor Degree teachers who is better than PhD teachers.
However, no matter how I think, I can't think that dishonest teachers are better than honest teachers

That is just me. No dishonest!!! (I need a vicious emoticon here!) Would this work?