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Originally Posted by Del
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
I have stated many times that it is hard to overcome physics when comparing pianos, and thought it worthy of a new thread.

Let's initially look at it from a few perspectives, the first being two pianos of identical construction varying only in size. For example a Yamaha C1 and C2, a Kawai RX-2 and RX-3, or a U1 and a U3. I think we would all agree that in this scenario the larger size will outperform the smaller one, and that the greater the difference in size the more obvious the tonal difference.

Another perspective is comparing pianos of differing quality and size where the "better" quality piano is smaller that the "lesser" quality piano. For example, comparing a Piano Buyer rated "High Quality Performance-Grade 5'8 inch grand with say a 6'7" middle group Consumer-Grade piano. Here the choice is not so easy, as it is hard to overcome physics.

During the early years of my career the difference between what we now call “entry-level” pianos and high-end pianos was dramatic. To be sure, a lot could be done with good dealer prep work but there was still going to be a significant gap. While a 6’ 7” Brand K grand could be made to sound quite presentable, especially for its price, it was never—at least not without some modifying—going to perform on a level with a really good, high-end American or European grand. Even one four to eight inches shorter. To be sure, it might have an advantage in the very low bass but it takes more than a few low bass notes to make a great sounding piano.

This price- and size-to-performance ratio has changed dramatically over the past few years as the better high-production manufacturers have gradually gotten their act together. I know an increasing number of decent pianists who are buying longer, low-cost instruments in favor of shorter, more expensive instruments. Some of the money they saved by not going high-end is going into careful prep work that should be—but isn’t always—part of the package with a so-called “performance” piano. The potential tone quality and action performance of some of these pianos is hidden just beneath the veneer of high production.

With larger pianos the gap has been narrowing because high-production manufacturers have learned to better integrate modern manufacturing machinery into the piano making process. Design makes less difference here; the fundamental design of high-end pianos is not significantly different from that of their lower cost competition. Certainly there are differences in detail but a good technician can make up for at least some of those differences with careful action, hammer and string work.



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The situation is becoming more complex with some of today's new designs. An example is Del Fandrich's designs for the Young Chang grands. Here, IMHO, the innovative scale design produces a tone that sounds, in many ways, like a larger piano. At the original introduction of the line I was fooled when I heard a 5' grand from across the room, thinking it was a 5'7". However, there is still a limit imposed by physics when you start to compare tone in instruments that are larger.

With smaller pianos things get more complicated. It is not possible to overcome physics but it is possible to learn to work with it better than we have in the past and a willingness to take a fresh approach to working with the laws of physics can pay off handsomely with smaller pianos.

When we’re working with short scales in small physical packages we have to make clear-cut choices when we define the goals of the pianos we’re designing (or redesigning). All piano design and construction is based on compromise; anyone claiming otherwise understands neither. Until fairly recently—as piano history is measured—it seems the primary goal for the manufacturer of small pianos was to make them as loud as possible. Horsepower sells cars and sound power sells pianos. At least that seems to have been the operative theory. But, just like overpowered cars are not always pleasant to drive, overpowered pianos are not always pleasant to play.

Nothing I have done, either in new design (the Walter grands, for example) or in redesign (most recently the Young Chang/Weber product line) violates any laws of physics; I have simply used some of them in ways that are unusual to what we euphemistically call “modern” piano technology.

I started with a different musical goal; musicality as opposed to power. While this was the case with all models, achieving it has been most challenging with the smaller sizes. I learned long ago that with short pianos acoustical power must take a back seat to most everything else. That is not a big a drawback as it might seem as most of these pianos are going to be placed in relatively small rooms where power will take care if itself.

We can make short pianos sound quite nice once we relieve them of the obligation of producing huge amounts of acoustical power. We can reduce their scale tensions, thin out and lighten up their soundboard structures and give them lighter, less dense hammers. The result is something like a VW GTI compared to a Ford Mustang. The GTI is light and nimble, quick and responsive but it lacks the brute power of the Mustang. Both suit a purpose but that purpose is different. We could stuff a bigger engine into the GTI and it would certainly go faster but it would also pretty much ruin its pleasant character.

ddf


Great post Del.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I wonder if manufacturers who make a series of slightly longer small grands are not trying to force dealers to carry more stock of their brand and thus create less room for other brands in the same store. Sort of like 10 different cheerios fighting for shelf space.

I can’t speak for all manufacturers but with those I have worked with over the years this was not the case. When I started the Young Chang/Weber redesign project I lobbied hard to drop the 150 size (or to start over and make it a truly modern design) but there was strong resistance from marketing; turns out this was/is one of their largest selling grand piano models. The public buys them and their dealers want them. They also want the 157 grand which is also a popular size. Marketing's philosophy was to continue providing what dealers were ordering. The marketing people have regular and on-going discussions with their dealers; if the consumer and dealer demand for these pianos wasn’t there they would be dropped from the product line. People buy specific pianos for many reasons not all of which seem logical to us as technicians.




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With the advent of numerical machines and CAD design-having more designs does not add the same costs it once did to manufacture.

Well, yes and no. The cost of introducing a new design—i.e., a really new design as opposed to a redesign—is substantial for a high-volume manufacturer. True, reprograming an NC or CNC machine is relatively easy but the cost of the multitude of production jigs and fixtures needed to make every single part of the piano is formidable. Even though things such as pedal systems, some fly parts, etc., are interchangeable; others are not.



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The greatest small grand scale ever done was the largest of the Chickering Quarter grands. When they are in good shape the depth of tone is amazing. I see no manufacturer today utilizing the design elements The Quarter Grand established.

This is a soapbox I’ve been on for years. When I hear of some “All New” piano coming along I generally just sigh out of shear boredom. Usually—almost always—no; it is the same, tired old insides dressed up with new leg styles and a new shape for the music desk. Occasionally some redesign work has gone on inside and some limited performance gains can be found but these still leave me wanting. Cosmetic surgery can hide the wrinkles for a while but it can’t restore that youthful vigor.

I have long argued that piano manufacturers should be continually be developing entirely new models that stretch the limits of known and traditional shapes, sizes and technologies. The arguments against this are cost and uncertainty. The cost of developing all-new designs is high but I argue that the cost of not doing this is higher in terms of declining sales. There is uncertainty in introducing an all-new design; will it sell? Will anyone want it? It is more comfortable selling something that has been around for a hundred years.

I would argue that without doing this, without getting new products—really new designs—out there for people to see and try, how will we know? I could almost become depressed when I think of all the lost market opportunities. These market opportunities exist across the market spectrum—grand and vertical, large and small, high-end and low-end—but they go unexplored and languish because of an almost universal lack of vision and courage.

We have made progress in making century-old architecture sound better than it ever has in the past but it really is time to move on and develop new designs that are more suitable to today’s marketplace. I have still more to say on this subject but it will have to wait until April.

ddf


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I have long argued that piano manufacturers should be continually be developing entirely new models that stretch the limits of known and traditional shapes, sizes and technologies.


Which is exactly what people like Lothar Thomma have done with the new line of Ritmüller/ Kayserburg they developed for Pearl River. These pianos have nothing whatsoever to do with pianos by same name from before.

There are other examples of course, but when calling something "new" when it actually isn't, there are others where it clearly *is*

Del's own designs for both Young Chang and Walter are another good example of this.

Luckily in our industry the "proof is in the pudding" so it doesn't usually take too long before people start taking notice of things.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 02/15/13 04:41 PM.


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Originally Posted by Norbert
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I have long argued that piano manufacturers should be continually be developing entirely new models that stretch the limits of known and traditional shapes, sizes and technologies.


Which is exactly what people like Lothar Thomma have done with the new line of Ritmüller/ Kayserburg they developed for Pearl River. These pianos have nothing whatsoever to do with pianos by same name from before.

There are other examples of course, but when calling something "new" when it actually isn't, there are others where it clearly *is*

Del's own designs for both Young Chang and Walter are another good example of this.

Luckily in our industry the "proof is in the pudding" so it doesn't usually take too long before people start taking notice of things.

No, none of these are examples of what I'm writing about. These are all based on existing rims and string frames (even if modified some). The new YC/W pianos is the most extensively redesigned piano product line on the market just now but even these are not examples of what I'm advocating.

What I am talking about is far more radical. If you read the Piano Technician's Journal you'll see what I mean in a couple of months.

ddf



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I am less interested in all new designs.

I think a study of best past practices combined with judicious adoption of new materials-PLUS getting all the proportions amongst the various elements properly established-not only will the piano sound and play better, but it will be easier to establish these standards in the manufacturing process and the piano will last longer than the competition! Understanding how piano tone is created and used is of paramount importance.

That is why I rebuild select pianos for sale-I can establish these things, (except the cost savings of mass production) and there is no new piano available that can match the performance.


I look forward to Del's "radical" PTG Journal article. Change should always be well thought out-the industry has failed so far to give pianist's a reason to replace their old pianos with a new generation of design.


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No, none of these are examples of what I'm writing about. These are all based on existing rims and string frames (even if modified some). The new YC/W pianos is the most extensively redesigned piano product line on the market just now but even these are not examples of what I'm advocating.


This is not what Mr. Thomma told me but perhaps it doesn't matter. We all know that "new" is not automatically "better" unless the designer has a vested interest to accomplish this.

I don't see a contest in terms of "who's designed the most" but "who has accomplished the most doing whatever he was doing. The net result is all that counts.

Most manufacturers are not committed that way at least not for their smaller pianos - why offer someone a 'smaller' great piano when there's [generally] more money to be made on larger ones?

By same token, when something is in fact "better"- however this is being accomplished -the market will surely take note of this.

Enhanced product eventually will translate into increased sales for its maker often at the cost of other product offered at same time.

Without this, the entire process IMHO is mute.

Starting to believe Mr.Thomma perhaps should indeed have designed "less" rather than 'more'.

It's the small 4'10 - 148 grand starting to give us serious trouble by eating into otherwise hoped for sales of larger grands.

However this has been accomplished....

Norbert mad

Last edited by Norbert; 02/15/13 11:10 PM.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
That is why I rebuild select pianos for sale-I can establish these things, (except the cost savings of mass production) and there is no new piano available that can match the performance.

I look forward to Del's "radical" PTG Journal article. Change should always be well thought out-the industry has failed so far to give pianist's a reason to replace their old pianos with a new generation of design.

As did I until I started spending 20 weeks a year in hotels.

What I propose—have for years—is not really all that radical. It doesn’t take any great technological breakthroughs or sophisticated materials. Those could be used but they are not necessary. I simply take the position that the evolution of the piano is not yet complete and that we can do better than rehash the basic architecture of 100 to 150 years ago.

There are many ways to make the piano more appealing to our changing lifestyles and I explore some of them. It is amazing to me that, as you say, no new piano available is able to match the performance of a nicely rebuilt and very moderately redesigned old one. No industry can afford to simply write off its existing customer base and not even try to capture some repeat business.

ddf


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Del,
I don't know if I would call some of your re-designed pianos I have seen as "moderately re-designed". We have a very real difference in approach and scope.

I have worked in an evolutionary way where I take my model of the piano structure /tone/touch/durability- and identify the problem I seek to solve-and develop a protocol that involves making one change at a time. That change also must have room to modify or revert, if possible, after completion. Changing one thing at a time gives the only assurance of correct interpretation of the result and some general range of magnitude. Over time I have developed a repertoire of design elements that give me great power over the qualities of a piano.

Also careful study of the design evolution of Steinway, Baldwin, Chickering, Mason-Hamlin can offer insight into how to predict the tonal result. The strength of a theory is always the measure of the predictions you can make from it.

My pianos have and are being used by some of the best pianists on the planet.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Also careful study of the design evolution of Steinway, Baldwin, Chickering, Mason-Hamlin can offer insight into how to predict the tonal result.

Well, let’s see…Steinway is being eclipsed by a number of U.S. (and probably European) rebuilders rebuilding their own ancient instruments along with several European pianomakers, Baldwin and Chickering are history and Mason & Hamlin has—how can I put this generously—a troubled past. I’ve studied that design evolution as well.



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The strength of a theory is always the measure of the predictions you can make from it.

At least this we can agree on.

ddf



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Surely we must include Young-Chang as a company with a troubled finances and some at times horrendous sounding pianos. I look forward and am planning a trip to hear the improvements that Del and YC have achieved in sonic results.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Surely we must include Young-Chang as a company with a troubled finances and some at times horrendous sounding pianos. I look forward and am planning a trip to hear the improvements that Del and YC have achieved in sonic results.

Of course. I was just commenting on those you were holding up as examples of stellar design.

ddf


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The strength of a theory is always the measure of the predictions you can make from it.


To me it's outcome and end result.

Few people really care how one gets there.

Norbert



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On the subject of musicality...a question...is it time to open design debate around tuning temperaments, even interval design, and maybe tone?

I know nothing about piano design and I'm not even a pianist. As a singer, I use the piano for practice on pitches and as partner instrument in performance.

Some of the newer solo and, for sure, choral music is incorporating more and more "world" music elements that are not entirely based on western scales--for sure not in the harmonies. Composers tend to notate grace notes, slides, etc. to try to get the effect. Even the tones/sounds that are being requested are very new.

Should this/will this influence piano design? Or maybe for these purposes, electronic is best?

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Originally Posted by Norbert
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The strength of a theory is always the measure of the predictions you can make from it.


To me it's outcome and end result.

Few people really care how one gets there.

Norbert


Scientific theories are most often proven or disproven based on the theories' ability to provide accurate predictions. For example, Einstein's theory of gravity allowed physicists to predict the motion of celestial objects. Those objects could then be observed to see if they moved in the way the theory predicted. If so, such evidence provided strong support for the veracity of the theory. If the objects did not move as predicted by the theory, it would have been the beginning of the end for the theory.

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ROY123, I'am not a prepared lecturer in basic physics and I appreciate your comment but if I remember correctly; Newtonian physics are adequate for explaining the motion of planets around their suns. Einstein's relativity involves the behavior of light and what he needed to prove that part of his theory with was a direct observation of space/time curvature. This was accomplished by measuring the change in apparent location of stars directly behind the edge of our sun. The stars position changed when their light passed close by our sun on it's way to the observation point. This test could only be done at a location on earth that was in full solar eclipse.


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Well, it is all a matter of the accuracy to which the planet's position can be measured. Nowadays the accuracy is so good that you must include relativistic effects not only for planets, but for objects in earth orbit and other spacecraft.


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Originally Posted by Norbert
This is not what Mr. Thomma told me but perhaps it doesn't matter. We all know that "new" is not automatically "better" unless the designer has a vested interest to accomplish this.

I don't see a contest in terms of "who's designed the most" but "who has accomplished the most doing whatever he was doing. The net result is all that counts.

Nor do I. And I do not want to detract from the work Mr Thomma has done but the pianos you are promoting do not illustrate the kind of progress I’m talking about. Nor, as I said earlier, do the Young Chang/Weber pianos that I have just redesigned.

When we are given these assignments—redesign these pianos to make them sound better—there are always constraints; they are not clean computer screen efforts. And the results, while they may well be improvements over the originals, tend to be moderately evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Even though—when we are all through—the marketing people will talk about the end result as if everything is completely new it never is.

We hope the improvements we are making will give the products we sell a slight competitive edge over those of our competitors as we see them. Unfortunately, we live in a rapidly changing world and the competition for piano sales is no longer coming simply from the pianos built by other manufacturers. And these are the questions and issues I discuss in my upcoming article.

None of these pianos are indicative of the kinds of changes I believe need to be made—especially in the small grand piano market. But don’t worry; if history is any indicator most of what I write about will be dismissed as the ravings of an out-of-touch lunatic and nothing will be done. And piano design will continue to be restrained by those who “understand” the piano market and sales will continue to decline. Design lethargy, after all, is a problem that has afflicted the piano industry for at least a century now.



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Most manufacturers are not committed that way at least not for their smaller pianos - why offer someone a 'smaller' great piano when there's [generally] more money to be made on larger ones?

Well, maybe there is. Small grand pianos make up for the vast bulk of grand sales. If the companies making them are not making money on them they aren’t pricing them right.

ddf


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Del what is stopping an aggressive newcomer from breaking with tradition and using someone like you to design it? Surely it wouldn't cost *that* much to do a prototype or two. Maybe 500,000? I would think you could find the capital and if the performance really is that good sell it to some manufacturer looking for an edge?

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Originally Posted by jawhitti
Del what is stopping an aggressive newcomer from breaking with tradition and using someone like you to design it? Surely it wouldn't cost *that* much to do a prototype or two. Maybe 500,000? I would think you could find the capital and if the performance really is that good sell it to some manufacturer looking for an edge?

Well, vision for one thing. Conventional manufacturers have shown little interest in developing or building anything that deviates very far from the centuries-old architecture they inherited (or copied) from their predecessors.

Prototypes can be had for a lot less than that but no matter how successful the prototype convincing a manufacturer to step outside its comfort zone and build—and market!—something different from the traditional norm is something else altogether.

Still, I do continue to prod at the status quo….

ddf


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Originally Posted by Del
Originally Posted by jawhitti
Del what is stopping an aggressive newcomer from breaking with tradition and using someone like you to design it? Surely it wouldn't cost *that* much to do a prototype or two. Maybe 500,000? I would think you could find the capital and if the performance really is that good sell it to some manufacturer looking for an edge?

Well, vision for one thing. Conventional manufacturers have shown little interest in developing or building anything that deviates very far from the centuries-old architecture they inherited (or copied) from their predecessors.

Prototypes can be had for a lot less than that but no matter how successful the prototype convincing a manufacturer to step outside its comfort zone and build—and market!—something different from the traditional norm is something else altogether.

Still, I do continue to prod at the status quo….

ddf


Del is spot on here.

It comes down to marketing and marketing risk. There is simply too much risk in deviating too far from the norm.



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