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Joined: Jan 2013
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I believe other than lose energy in the bass area the sound is pretty ok, what I really need to do is corner up another Imperial owner and do a 'test drive', I know not all pianos are created equal but Boseys should have some particular characteristics that would carry over from one piano to another, I've played a few Imperials years ago (like almost 10) so it's hard to form an opinion now by only considering my own piano. That makes sense. You might consider making recordings and doing some spectral analysis. Your ear may be sufficient but recordings and numbers allow for objective review. As you may know, Richard Dain, who fitted the carbon fibre soundboard to a Bosendorfer, included some Bosendorfer spectrograms in this paper. It might be worth asking about Bosendorfer soundboard repairs on the German forum (Clavio). Thank you for the information, I'll check it out whenever I get a little more time (hey 3 day weekend coming up..)
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...cracks are not the issue, loss of compression is the issue. Pardon my ignorance but the loss of compression you're referring to, is it related to the planks of spruce that were glued together to form the soundboard? As I understand, in the process of manufacturing the soundboard, the planks are fitted together and the crown is formed which adds 'energy' to the system (soundboard), this allows the board to amplify the sound and propagate the sound waves, once the crack appears some of this energy is released and basically lost, the ultimate draining would come from the board becoming flat, am I on the right track here?
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If you have the soundboard replaced by anyone other than the factory, you will probably have a very nice, very large piano but you won't really have a Bosendorfer any more. If having a true Bosendorfer is important to you, I would explore every possibility to keep the current board (and bridges). If that is not reasonable, then consider replacement by the factory. Boy, that will be unbelievably expensive but you will still have a true Bosendorfer. You're joking, right? A Bosendorfer Sound Board is not the same as most of the others for several reasons. Unless a rebuilder is specifically familiar with this installation, I might tend to agree with Eric. Larry, I thought all soundboards parted from the same concept, planks of spruce wood glued together and crowned, tightly fit into the case in order to amplify and reflect the sound coming from the strings, what could possibly be so different about the Bosendorfer soundboards. I've checked your website and I know you've worked on many different makes of pianos, the Steinway S restoration (the fire piano) was a work of a true master so please shed some light into the differences you've encountered.
Last edited by Jorge Andrade; 02/15/13 04:19 PM.
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If all pianos are the same inside then does that mean you paid thousands of dollars extra just for the company label on the outside. I find it difficult to swallow that any soundboard can replace a Bosendorfer soundboard, surely that can't be right.
Casio Privia PX-150
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Pardon my ignorance but the loss of compression you're referring to, is it related to the planks of spruce that were glued together to form the soundboard? As I understand, in the process of manufacturing the soundboard, the planks are fitted together and the crown is formed which adds 'energy' to the system (soundboard), this allows the board to amplify the sound and propagate the sound waves, once the crack appears some of this energy is released and basically lost, the ultimate draining would come from the board becoming flat, am I on the right track here? No. There are two basic methods used to establish crown in a piano soundboard system. (And many variations blending the two.) 1) Wood—usually spruce—boards are glued together to form a panel. This panel is thicknessed as desired and then dried to a very low moisture content (typically 4.0% summer/3.8% winter). When it’s dried it physically shrinks (mostly in the perpendicular-to-grain direction). Ribs are glued to this panel in a perpendicular-to-grain direction. After the assembly is returned to a normal environment (where there is more moisture in the air) the panel swells and creates a stress interface between the ribs and the soundboard panel. This forces a curve into the assembly; i.e., it warps but this time the warp is deliberate. 2) A crown is machined into one surface of the ribs and this curved surface is glued to the soundboard panel. The moisture content of the panel is somewhat higher when the ribs are glued on (typically somewhere between 6% and 7%) so there is never as much compression in these soundboard panels. At no point is energy “added†to either system. Sound is not “amplified†by the soundboard assembly. And no “energy†is “lost†when a crack appears in a soundboard panel. The piano soundboard system is basically a mechanical transducer. The bridges transfer vibrating energy from the strings to the soundboard assembly where it is converted, or transduced, into sound energy. How efficiently this transduction takes place is a function of the mass and stiffness of the soundboard assembly. And soundboard stiffness is affected by panel compression. When the tone quality of a piano changes because of variations in climate the two primary causes for the change are due to increased or (in your case) decreased amounts of internal compression in the soundboard panel and to the changes that take place in the wool felt hammers. Listen to David when he looks at your piano. He understands this stuff. ddf
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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Joined: Jan 2013
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If all pianos are the same inside then does that mean you paid thousands of dollars extra just for the company label on the outside. I find it difficult to swallow that any soundboard can replace a Bosendorfer soundboard, surely that can't be right. I'm not claiming all pianos are the same inside, you very well know there are other parts beside the soundboard inside of a piano, I'm only referring the soundboard because that's what everyone seems to be particular about.
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Joined: Jan 2013
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Pardon my ignorance but the loss of compression you're referring to, is it related to the planks of spruce that were glued together to form the soundboard? As I understand, in the process of manufacturing the soundboard, the planks are fitted together and the crown is formed which adds 'energy' to the system (soundboard), this allows the board to amplify the sound and propagate the sound waves, once the crack appears some of this energy is released and basically lost, the ultimate draining would come from the board becoming flat, am I on the right track here? No. There are two basic methods used to establish crown in a piano soundboard system. (And many variations blending the two.) 1) Wood—usually spruce—boards are glued together to form a panel. This panel is thicknessed as desired and then dried to a very low moisture content (typically 4.0% summer/3.8% winter). When it’s dried it physically shrinks (mostly in the perpendicular-to-grain direction). Ribs are glued to this panel in a perpendicular-to-grain direction. After the assembly is returned to a normal environment (where there is more moisture in the air) the panel swells and creates a stress interface between the ribs and the soundboard panel. This forces a curve into the assembly; i.e., it warps but this time the warp is deliberate. 2) A crown is machined into one surface of the ribs and this curved surface is glued to the soundboard panel. The moisture content of the panel is somewhat higher when the ribs are glued on (typically somewhere between 6% and 7%) so there is never as much compression in these soundboard panels. At no point is energy “added†to either system. Sound is not “amplified†by the soundboard assembly. And no “energy†is “lost†when a crack appears in a soundboard panel. The piano soundboard system is basically a mechanical transducer. The bridges transfer vibrating energy from the strings to the soundboard assembly where it is converted, or transduced, into sound energy. How efficiently this transduction takes place is a function of the mass and stiffness of the soundboard assembly. And soundboard stiffness is affected by panel compression. When the tone quality of a piano changes because of variations in climate the two primary causes for the change are due to increased or (in your case) decreased amounts of internal compression in the soundboard panel and to the changes that take place in the wool felt hammers. Listen to David when he looks at your piano. He understands this stuff. ddf Thanks for the information, aside from the 'amplification' and 'energy' suggestions I think I was on the right track then. What I'm going to take from this is that overall, as a complete 'system' the soundboard panels, ribs and bridges form a system to transfer the energy from the strings into vibrations that we hear as sound. I wonder which process the Bosendorfer factory utilize to create their soundboards, I guess one could see that during a factory visit???
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But sampled sounds on the better DP's are virtually exact "recordings" of acoustics, a single note or chord cannot be distinguished between the two on a blind test....period.
Hogwash.
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... On the other hand, what would your 700 lb piano be called if you wanted to haul it out a couple hundred yards into the woods for a music foray with freinds? It would be called a hernia.
Ah ha! so THAT'S what I'm doing wrong. I knew hauling that Young Chang was hard on my knees, but I never thought of the hernia danger. (I'm a guitar player anyway, so what would I know?)
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No, not at all. A Bosendorfer is not a set of legos that anybody can put together.
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In the hands of a skilled rebuilder, it will be a fine piano. But I, PERSONALLY, wouldn't consider it a Bosendorfer anymore.
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No, not at all. A Bosendorfer is not a set of legos that anybody can put together. Neither is a Steinway, or a Baldwin, or whatever, yet many rebuilders seem to replace soundboards just fine. PS I've been to the Boesendorfer factory... it's not rocket science.
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I'm trying to post 3 pictures of the soundboard cracks but all I get is the URL option, can't I just embed the pics here? host the pictures here http://imageshack.us/ and post the links, lets have a look at the piano.
Casio Privia PX-150
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I'm trying to post 3 pictures of the soundboard cracks but all I get is the URL option, can't I just embed the pics here? host the pictures here http://imageshack.us/ and post the links, lets have a look at the piano. Great, thanks for the info and here's the link, I hope it works: Soundboard cracks Note the largest one that basically goes from one side of the soundboard to another is actually deeper and wider than it shows in the picture, in some places I can see the floor but the picture made it look like a hairline.
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It is hard to see from the photos, but it looks like the edges of those cracks are dirty, which indicates they have been there for a while.
Semipro Tech
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It is hard to see from the photos, but it looks like the edges of those cracks are dirty, which indicates they have been there for a while. Yes I agree, these pictures are not the best, I took them before I left to work with my droid phone, the camera features on the droids really stink, I'm going to charge up my real camera tomorrow and take better ones. As far as the cracks, I can guarantee you the piano only had the one in the middle of the board, and it wasn't a crack but a ridge line, there was no separation, the 2 in the treble area showed up about 2 months ago when the weather really changed. David Chadwick has been my service technician since I bought the piano and he can attest.
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There is a crack in the soundboard of my wife's Steinway, one that I did not bother to do anything with, as I am of the school that cracks generally make no difference in the way the piano sounds. Most of the rest of the time, it is invisible. It may get wide enough to see when it gets really dry, I think. It is possible that you did not see the other cracks. I really doubt that you noticed them when they first appeared.
I mentioned Grand Obsession, a book about an experience that parallels your own. I am of the opinion that what you do not like about the piano now is not due to the piano itself, but the change of circumstance it has gone through.
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Sincerely, in my limited opinion, I'd not be worried about these cracks... and less I'd think in replace the SB.
I am more impressed as Bosendorfer fixed the bridge pins... clearly out of the notched...¡!
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I am more impressed as Bosendorfer fixed the bridge pins... clearly out of the notched...¡! Well spotted. Perhaps Bosendorfer know something about the movement of strings at bridge pins that others have not realised.
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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