Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
132 registered members (Almaviva, amad23, anotherscott, 17curleyj, 29 invisible), 1,523 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2033138 - 02/14/13 05:30 PM damper vs string resonance  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member
xorbe  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
Mt View, CA
As I understand this,

Damper resonance: Holding down the damper pedal, playing a note causes additional resonance effects.

String resonance: While silently holding a chord, playing a note may cause additional resonance effects.

Correct? Then what is "acoustic resonance" as listed in some specs?

Last edited by xorbe; 02/14/13 05:33 PM.
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

#2033151 - 02/14/13 05:46 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,885
toddy Online content
2000 Post Club Member
toddy  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,885
Portugal
You're right on the first two definitions as they're normally given by DP sellers. 'String resonance' comes from specific harmonics in one note causing sympathetic resonance in other notes, within the same harmonic range.

But it is impossible to imagine what kind of resonance would NOT be, in some form or other, acoustic. Seems like a complete contradiction in terms.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 Ult. / Focusrite Saffire 24
W7, i7 4770, 16GB / Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity. He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven & heck
#2033182 - 02/14/13 06:19 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 310
Hookxs Offline
Full Member
Hookxs  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 310
Czech Republic
I don't know about "acoustic resonance" (wahtever that is) but I don't understand the distinction between string and damper resonance. Physically they are the same phenomenon, right? One string is undamped (because of pedal or becaause it is pressed) and another is played. They are perhaps implemented differently and therefore listed as two different "features" although it is actually one.

#2033194 - 02/14/13 06:40 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: Hookxs]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member
xorbe  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
Mt View, CA
Originally Posted by Hookxs
I don't know about "acoustic resonance" (wahtever that is) but I don't understand the distinction between string and damper resonance. Physically they are the same phenomenon, right? One string is undamped (because of pedal or becaause it is pressed) and another is played. They are perhaps implemented differently and therefore listed as two different "features" although it is actually one.

Right, it's just a programming distinction. There's a generic algorithm for damper down, and another for individual keys down.

Casio lists my PX-330 as "acoustic resonance", but I've never noticed anything. I noticed the PX-150/PX-350 list damper resonance (fixed setting for piano sounds) -- now I have to go back to GC and check.

Last edited by xorbe; 02/14/13 06:42 PM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2033197 - 02/14/13 06:44 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: Hookxs]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,053
anotherscott Online content
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,053
Originally Posted by Hookxs
I don't know about "acoustic resonance" (wahtever that is) but I don't understand the distinction between string and damper resonance. Physically they are the same phenomenon, right? One string is undamped (because of pedal or becaause it is pressed) and another is played. They are perhaps implemented differently and therefore listed as two different "features" although it is actually one.

I would consider them to be two different features. If you hold a C major chord down with your left hand, and play a C note with your right hand (no pedal involved), that lower C will resonate, and to a lesser extent, the E and G will resonate as well. If instead you hit that low C chord and then depress the pedal and then play that higher C note, many strings will resonate. So the results sound different, the samples employed are different, the programming needed is different. The phenomena are based on the same acoustic principle, but the sound and required implementation are different, which is why a keyboard can have one and not the other.

#2033209 - 02/14/13 07:03 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Damper resonance can be captured quite realistically with pedal down layers in a sampled piano. I believe string resonance needs a separate DSP algorithm to exist in a purely sampled piano, even pedal events can create very complex resonance situations. Purely modeled pianos can excite the string models for both types of resonance.

#2033454 - 02/15/13 12:43 AM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,593
Charles Cohen Online content
3000 Post Club Member
Charles Cohen  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,593
Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by dewster
Damper resonance can be captured quite realistically with pedal down layers in a sampled piano. I believe string resonance needs a separate DSP algorithm to exist in a purely sampled piano, even pedal events can create very complex resonance situations. Purely modeled pianos can excite the string models for both types of resonance.


That sounds right. The "damper up" sound is _one sample_. The sound of "key X down, with dampers up" is _one sample_.

To get "string resonance" -- the correct sound for "hold down key X, and strike key Y" -- you must sample _pairwise_ each pair of notes! And then sum them:

. . . A 6-note chord will have (I think) 18 combinations
. . . of keys.

Which, I suppose, is why it's only modeled in high-cost DP's, and in software pianos.

The DPBSD thread has definitions for all these things. But that doesn't necessarily match with the manufacturer's meaning.

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2033672 - 02/15/13 12:25 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: Charles Cohen]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
The DPBSD thread has definitions for all these things. But that doesn't necessarily match with the manufacturer's meaning.

There doesn't seem to be an industry standard for this terminology, and what exists is ambiguously named.

#2033731 - 02/15/13 02:07 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,087
MacMacMac Offline
5000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,087
North Carolina
You're being quite generous calling it simply "ambiguous".

#2033851 - 02/15/13 06:22 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member
emenelton  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
On my Kawai ES6, the string resonance seems to be accomplished by triggering softly any of the keys that are held down that fall within the 2nd and 3rd partial of other notes being struck. I imagine this can be termed an algorhythm. Kawai calls it Harmonic Imaging. It is not however a dsp generation of resonance.
A number of the initial high end piano vst's did, with Kontakt, use an actual DSP generation of soundboard and string resonance I'm pretty sure. It was always one of the features that crashed the program:)

#2033956 - 02/15/13 09:59 PM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: emenelton]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by emenelton
On my Kawai ES6, the string resonance seems to be accomplished by triggering softly any of the keys that are held down that fall within the 2nd and 3rd partial of other notes being struck. I imagine this can be termed an algorhythm. Kawai calls it Harmonic Imaging. It is not however a dsp generation of resonance.

I think "Harmonic Imaging" is what Kawai calls the entire process of sample playback and resonance effects in the ES6. I believe "string resonance" is most likely a DSP effect in there.

#2034005 - 02/16/13 12:08 AM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member
emenelton  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
For example, if I hold down the G above middle C and strike middle C, a G an octave above the depressed G sounds. To me, when I subsequently strike that octave G on it's key, I am convinced its the same sample. I been all over the keyboard doing that, it's alot of fun, until family members start telling me to knock it off!
Kawai's Harmonic Imaging, as far as string resonance is concerned, seems to be a sophisticated triggering matrix.
The damper resonance however is far subtler.

#2034007 - 02/16/13 12:10 AM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member
xorbe  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 573
Mt View, CA
Okay so the PX-330's "acoustic" resonance is some form of damper resonance. It's most easily noticed hammering an upper key.

#2034019 - 02/16/13 12:33 AM Re: damper vs string resonance [Re: xorbe]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member
emenelton  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 902
One of the big features of string resonance on the kawai is the blooming effect of the resonance and the way it makes the sonorities bigger than just the notes being played. The resonance also effectively obscures looping effects and contributes to evolving sonorities that also lay over the notes being played.
-Without damper pedal-


Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Question From a Student For Teachers
by 17curleyj. 05/26/17 04:36 PM
Teachers - Piece difficulty - When to move up?
by my58vw. 05/26/17 04:08 PM
How much low frequency power does a piano have?
by PianoMan51. 05/26/17 03:28 PM
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 - first impressions
by TheodorN. 05/26/17 02:25 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,899
Posts2,630,046
Members87,892
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0