Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards How far is THE PERFECT DP from now?

When will we have a DP that can 100% replace the AP?

I think the action is solved by introduction of Avantgrands.
[But since it use a real AP action it costs as much as an AP (N3) which doesn't follow the motto of DP "A piano at every home".]

Regarding sound what is still missing? What is the bottle neck?

Compared to the growth of technology in other fields, DP's still in stone age.(IMHO)

Will a 2nd/3rd gen of Avantgrand or Vpiano will meet the needs(if any exists)?

Never?

Even a 'perfect' DP would be a different instrument than an acoustic piano.
The pianoforte has not replaced the clavichord, the harpsichord, etc. Uprights and grands coexist. Acoustic and electric guitars and basses coexist. It's not one or the other, it's both (or all).

Good question. But I have a better one, when will Steinway enter the game and put their action in a DP box? After all said and done, DP's can not and hopefully never will replace a acoustic pianos. If that ever happens you will probably see vocalists with digital vocal chord implants

You mean Renner, not Steinway. Renner provides actions for Steinway, Bosendorfer, and many other famous piano makers.

Far more likely (though not likely in the short term) would be Kawai putting their Millenium III action in a hybrid.

An original thought. Can you sign me up for that, I've always wanted to sing Pagliacci like Pavarotti!

Heck - I'm still waiting for the perfect AP.

There is no perfect instrument. (There is no perfect earthquake, measuring scales are therefore upwards open.)
And yet there IS: one at which you don't have the need to improve upon something. And that feeling can be achieved sometimes even with todays imperfect digital instruments - only play nice music on them....

I'd say that the evolution speed of DPs depends on the amount of competition in the market. I see some encouraging signs in an otherwise depressing outlook.

Take for instance Casio. Their PX-850 model (priced at around $1000) has given the big three (Yamaha, Roland and Kawai) a run for their money as the PX-850 offer features found only in the higher-end models at a fraction of the cost: 256 polyphony, 4 speakers (incl. 2 tweeters), and a good variety of in/out jacks. I have no personal experience of how these specs translate to in terms of sound, but we should thank Casio for trying.

Something good **may** come up of China, who's now an emerging player in the market. If they do the Casio trick and sell a **good** model at an affordable price, that will be a huge jolt to the big-3.

The big-3 are in an oligopoly, and largely survive not because of the objective quality of their products, but rather because of their reputation. They have the brainpower and engineering expertise to make their products far better, but no monetary incentive to do so because of low competition. As a result, their products are overpriced and evolve very slowly. Why should Yamaha/Kawai/Roland sound samples be of any lower quality than those of a firm such as Synthogy (the makers of Ivory II)? I'm sure Yamaha could blow Synthogy out of the water overnight if they decided to do so. I haven't tried any Roland product, but some say that their V-piano compares favorably to software pianos - but their prices are outrageous, and so I won't be the sucker to pay for the Roland name.

I vote for 10 years, but that's only a guesstimate. The looming US debt crisis could postpone that for another decade.

As long as PIANO makers are making the DPs, then never!

"When will we have a DP that can 100% replace the AP?"

About fifteen years. Ago. I bought my Yam then , was transfixed by the sound. Wasn`t perfect in many ways. But the following crop o` digitals weren`t a patch. It`s been like rthat ever since imo. I`m looking to change. But the old ones are selling for a very high price . . . and they look BEAUTIFUL!

If I tell you that you're listening to an acoustic piano when in fact you're listening to a digital piano, there are probably a lot of people who wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'd wager that most players, well most people with a good ear in any case, would have no problem spotting the fake. There's sample looping, sometimes a certain sterile quality to some of the modeling, etc... I'd say that on one front the question will be "when will you be unable to tell the difference?" or when will pros be unable to tell the difference? It may not be that far off.

You might also make similar arguments about the action of most DP's If you blindfolded most players and put them down in front of a dozen AP's (maybe a mix of uprights and grands) and 1 DP (or vice verse) and had them play something on each piano, would they be able to spot the odd man out just by touch? I would imagine so, but again I think the gap is closing. I think there will come a day when even pros could not tell a DP from an AP unless they knew a priori which was which.

The perfect DP will be/have:

A) Affordable - max $3000. And don't sell at inflated prices in some countries just because you can (Canada v. the US).

B) Gorgeous piano sounds - just like some software pianos. No reason why I should buy a bloody expensive box if, in order to get decent sounds, I need to bypass their software by a third-party product at the cost of latency and playability.

C) No sound artifacts - sounds that do not exist in APs. I raised the issue of ears ringing when playing fast notes in the treble range for a high-end model elsewhere. This is totally unacceptable for a price tag of $7000.

D) Acceptable touch. Adjustable to one's tastes would be even better, as touches vary wildly in APs. A 7/8 key size option would be nice, as it would be easier for elderly people or people with small hands.

E) A good soundboard in wood, which would give the DP sound an organic feeling. The CA95 (which I haven't tried yet - not yet available in my area) sounds like a pace in the right direction.

F) Drop the junk features. Music lessons, "Concert magic", dual mode with slow strings (yeech!), split keyboard. These are best left for entry level slab models, for people that are satisfied with their toys since 15 years. Ago.

Which models feature superimposed strings?

Also, many users appreciate these additional features. If a manufacturer was to remove the 'Split' functions from their instruments they would almost certainly lose sales.

Kind regards,
James
x

Sumimasen for not being clear, James-san: I was thinking about the dual mode in all CN/CA models, for instance concert grand with slow strings. When the dealer turned it on in the shop, my reaction was "Yeech!".

You can make the argument some people want these features, but an equally powerful argument can be made that you are missing some sales because some people are turned off by the higher prices that these features command.

Well, piano with strings is a popular combination.
Please understand that you are not the only consumer in the world.



Correct.



Such an argument could be made, however it probably would not apply to a terribly significant number of consumers. Moreover such 'Dual' and 'Split' playing modes are pretty standard features across most digital piano ranges.

Kind regards,
James
x

Unlikely to happen. However, I do believe that, if it weren't for the saturated market of underserviced-but-still-functioning used pianos, they would quickly replace entry level uprights. The saturated market brings the price down but new owners continue to underservice and trot out these tired relics. Better uprights and grands will not be replaced by technology though institutions will make monetary decisions when comparing alternative instruments.
Speakers morso than anything (not entirely solvable). The next gap is pedal behavior (solvable but impractical for now). The third would require some randomization incorporated into modeling to prevent fatigue. Currently, even the best models are too predictably consistent. Our ears recognize patterns and we break down the complex into simple elements which leads back to fatigue with DP's. Until the speaker issue is solved, this problem may as well wait.

Seriously, have you ever listened to that particular combination? Putting the YouTube video hype aside, it's plain ugly and unnatural. I would even go as far as to say that this combination is particularly repulsive and offensive to the ears. The piano does not sound like a piano and the strings do not sound like strings. Plus, you have little control on the mix, as you would on an organ with two keyboards plus pedals, as in simulating a concerto for piano and orchestra. The dual mode mix is a half-baked feature that would perhaps interest an absolute beginner for 5 minutes before getting tired of it and never using it again. Idem for the other features I mention. Who else but a total beginner would enjoy "concert magic" for more than 5 minutes? That goes against the very concept of learning piano, which is to learn the skills to produce one very own's creation.



Thanks for the pleasantry. If I may say so in my turn, please understand that you're not working for the only company in the world. If a company insists on piling on dubious features in order to justify jacking up their prices, then I'll be happy to buy from other vendors, should they offer solid value at an affordable price. Mada mada desu.

I highly, highly doubt the piano/strings combo adds much, if anything, to the price. When you produce some actual proof rather than theories, people might listen to you. Until then you're frankly just verbalizing from within your posterior region.

The other features, maybe. I never used things like autoaccompaniment, etc and I can't think of many serious applications. If I was do play/record/run a composition, I'd want to go and do it right.

I do like piano/string combos, but I use synthesizers which give me much more control, so I see your point there. However, full programmability in a DP probably would raise the price. Right now, I see the extra voices being a freebie that some people (musical theatre, etc) happen to use sometimes.

"for people that are satisfied with their toys since 15 years. Ago."

That toy got played with. And earned me a lot of much needed cash at the time over four years. . . . People liked the sound o` that piano.

KataiYubi: KawaiJames put it perfectly: You are not the only customer in the world. I'll agree that the strings voice could be better, but it still has its uses. If you don't like it, then just don't push that button.

As for "Who else but a total beginner would enjoy "concert magic" for more than 5 minutes?" ... Well, I wouldn't use it, but others would. There are a great many beginners. And your 5 minute limit is absurdly small. So, again, you are not the only customer in the world.