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#2029617 - 02/09/13 02:46 AM Home study correspondence courses?  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
Dustin Spray Offline
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Dustin Spray  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
Central Illinois
Hello,

I am considering doing a home correspondence course for piano tuning. The PTG has 3 home study courses listed on their website. They were the "Ameican School of Piano Tuning", "Randy Potter Course", and the "Butler School of Piano Technology"

I work full time so going to a full time school is not possible. There are very few tuners in my area and I called one to see about shadowing him and he promply said NO and hung up.

I have bought the Reblitz book some time ago, and this does indeed intrest me.

Any feedback good or bad on these 3 home courses would be greatly appreciated. I have heard good reviews about the Randy Potter course. The American School course looks very outdated and if filled with letters of students that "Got Rich Quick" and how they are a A+ member of the Better Buisness Bureau, ect...... You get the hind. The Butler school advertises more of a approach that you buy your own tools, supplies, ect to save you money.....

Again, Im just looking to get started and I realize this course is not going to make me a expert piano technician by any stretch and that true craftmanship takes years of practice and hundreds if not thousands of tunings. It is for self enrichment and self education to work on my own piano and possibly my friends and church.

Thank you kindly,

-Dustin

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#2029641 - 02/09/13 04:36 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 151
Upright Offline
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Upright  Offline
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Germany
I wanted to take the Randy Potter Course because of the good reviews here. Unfortunately I never got any answer to my emails. I already have the tools and only wanted the course without tools. I also had contact to other people who are taking the course and they have the problem, that they send in their tuning practice videos and don't get answers as well.

In the meantime I got the videos only from Ebay and they are really good. The videos refer to the written course and I am sure this is just as good.

So, the course material looks to be very good. But the chance to get answers or a certificate in the end is very little.


Pianos and Service - www.martinwidmannklaviere.de
Piano parts and Accessories - www.pianosupply.de
#2029650 - 02/09/13 05:15 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Upright]  
Joined: Jan 2013
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Dustin Spray Offline
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Posts: 51
Central Illinois
I have heard Randy is terrible to get ahold of, takes along time to reply to emails and takes months to review tuning excercises on students on tapes that were send in, That is discouraging to say the least......

#2029660 - 02/09/13 05:52 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2009
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beethoven986 Offline
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beethoven986  Offline
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I have a suggestion. Join the PTG as an associate, even if there isn't an active chapter near you. Buy the back articles on DVD from the PTG website for $50 and read at your leisure. You will then have access to more information than you'll know what to do with... 30 years worth for only twice the cost of the Reblitz book. There are excellent articles that can teach you the basics of tuning and repair. Money and time permitting, also consider attending the convention in Chicago this July. Chances are you'll learn more doing this than you will from a home study course!

Randy Potter tuition: $1795

~or~

My suggestion, including convention attendance: $1449ish

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#2029852 - 02/09/13 12:58 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: May 2004
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bellspiano Offline
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bellspiano  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
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Boston, MA
Great suggestions from beethoven986. It was important for me to get a sense of the profession as well as a sense of the piano mechanics. I remember someone, at my first local PTG meeting, pointing out a woman across the room and saying, "She used to be a [whatever profession] and now she works on pianos. Doesn't she look happy?" and she did. It's not all about the piano action, it's also about the people who help me learn every day.


Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
#2029916 - 02/09/13 03:04 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2013
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Dustin Spray Offline
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Central Illinois
Thank you. I will look into joining the PTG as a associate member. I was unaware of the info on the website that you told me about. I did see there conference was held in Chicago this year, I will look into attending.

#2029946 - 02/09/13 04:33 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 387
Monaco Offline
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Monaco  Offline
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GA
I did the Potter Course. Unfortunately.
I found it to be poorly organized, full of typos and not anywheres near worth what I paid for it.
Check with your local chapter of the PTG. Mine has loads of materials available for you to check out for FREE!!!! $1800 wasted! UGHHH!!!!
If I had it to do over again, I would simply join the PTG. Continue to try to find an apprenticeship. Mine has been great. Just because one guy said no, don't give up.
Good luck.


Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech
#2029978 - 02/09/13 05:37 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Sep 2006
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Supply Offline
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Supply  Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
This fairly important statement has so far not received comment:
Originally Posted by Dustin Spray
.... It is for self enrichment and self education to work on my own piano and possibly my friends and church...

Piano technology is a fascinating field of study for a certain type of people. Most experienced techs will tell you that they are constantly expanding their knowledge, probably every week. That in itself is a reward, for me at least.
However, it is not realistic to learn to tune pianos in order to tune your own piano, and those of a few friends and a church. Learning to tune properly involves long and intensive practice, ideally under the guidance of a teacher or mentor.

It takes many, many practice tunings to be in a position to tune a piano. Numbers range from from a hundred to several hundred pianos. And then, to keep your chops up, you have to tune regularly. Tuning a few pianos a year is not going to do it. I notice that even after 30 years in the biz, when I don't tune for a few weeks (holiday etc) it takes me a while to get back into shape where I can "crank out" a good tuning in a reasonable time. Without my experience I would have slipped back to first base.

I am not saying don't do it. I am saying that there is a lot more to it than meets the eye or than you can possible imagine at this point. I think that in light of this, perhaps a smaller initial investment than a full blown course with it's up-front cost might be the way for you to go, to get a whiff of what is involved. That said, I know of a number of techs who started with the Potter course and it has helped them get into the profession.

#2030074 - 02/09/13 09:37 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: beethoven986]  
Joined: Feb 2012
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RestorerPhil Offline
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RestorerPhil  Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by beethoven986
I have a suggestion. Join the PTG as an associate, even if there isn't an active chapter near you. Buy the back articles on DVD from the PTG website for $50 and read at your leisure.


Wow! Thanks for that tidbit of information. I have often wished that I could buy a huge stash of back issues of the PTG Journal for the sake of my own study and to use in the training of shop techs. This makes it easier and makes it searchable! (or so I would suppose)


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
#2030091 - 02/09/13 10:07 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Nov 2007
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Actually you can Phil! You can buy a DVD CD from the PTG. I don't know how many years worth of journals are on it, something like 20 or 30 years worth I think. The website is filled with wonderful material if one joins the PTG.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#2030132 - 02/09/13 11:20 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
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beethoven986  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Actually you can Phil! You can buy a DVD CD from the PTG. I don't know how many years worth of journals are on it, something like 20 or 30 years worth I think. The website is filled with wonderful material if one joins the PTG.


It includes pretty much everything. 1979-2010, all on one DVD. I have all the PDF files saved on my laptop and refer to them frequently. You can browse the index by article, issue, or author and you can also use the Ctrl + F command to do a type search of these indexes. You find what you want, click on it, and the issue opens up to the correct article. All issues are searchable by Ctrl + F, as well. At $50 (member price), it's a no-brainer, as it contains all the PACE articles, etc. One would have to buy hundreds of dollars worth of books to acquire this much material!

#2030141 - 02/09/13 11:34 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
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BenP Offline
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South Jersey
Dustin, make sure you read Jurgen's post. He is absolutely right. I originally got interested in working on pianos in much the same way that you are. I quickly realized that it was "all or nothing." Particularly with tuning. Anyone with a mechanical brain can do some basic repairs on a piano, but learning to tune accurately (even with an ETD) is not really something you do just for fun, or just for your own piano.

And we don't say that to discourage you. In my case, I decided to go all the way and committed a lot of time to it. Maybe you should too!


Ben Patterson, RPT
South Jersey Piano Service, LLC
www.sjpianoservice.com
#2030142 - 02/09/13 11:36 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Nov 2007
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Hey, thanks Beethoven!!! smile


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#2030249 - 02/10/13 04:39 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
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beethoven986  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Hey, thanks Beethoven!!! smile
smile

#2030252 - 02/10/13 05:08 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2013
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Dustin Spray Offline
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Dustin Spray  Offline
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Central Illinois
I will check out the PTG. I filled out the info form online and they are suppose to send me a info packet in the mail. How much are the dues, fees, ect? And do you know where the nearset chapter is from Ottawa, IL? It wouldnt let me view the "chapters". Maybe its because I dont have access to certain areas of their forum due to my non-membership. Do you feel there is enough info and structure for a novice? I guess I was assuming alot of the info was geared more for advanced techs and people that have been in the buisness for quite sometime. It did appear that the conferences held seminars for novices.

Thanks guys, you are indeed very professional and helpful.

-Dustin

#2257072 - 04/05/14 08:21 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
JonBall Offline
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JonBall  Offline
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Posts: 11
Western Massachusetts
I bought the Randy Potter course, and unfortunately, all of my questions and emails go unanswered...even ones that say I'm going to be at the PTG/NEECSO conference in April and would like to meet you. I don't question his knowledge and contributions to the field, but other than his course materials, you're on your own.

I'm an associate member of the PTG and attend quarterly meetings as I'm able - I also work full-time at the moment so I can't always get to each meeting. But I've purchased a couple of good-quality tuning hammers, the PACE books and PTG study guides, some other highly-recommended books, and even bought a Sanderson Accu-Tuner IV recently to help me learn to tune and pass the RPT exams.

At any rate, I'm wanting to get into this work full-time within the next 6-12 months, so I'm now looking into the Butler course. I've read on other threads that the two courses compliment each other, so this might not be a bad thing - and Mr. Butler apparently gives you his time and attention.

Just my experience. Hope you find what you need.


Jon Ball
Associate PTG Member
Yamaha GB1
#2257094 - 04/05/14 09:37 AM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: JonBall]  
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bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Perhaps someone from the Randy Potter organization should address these concerns. (Future recommendations in the balance.)


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2257276 - 04/05/14 04:55 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,331
Roger Ransom Offline
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Roger Ransom  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,331
SouthWest Michigan
I also took the Potter course a number of years ago. My Dad taught me a lot but he was not geographically near at the time I wanted additional instruction.

It was pretty difficult to slog through a lot of his verbosity. He would blather on and on until I had to go back to remind myself what in the world he was talking about.

He's also pretty darned impressed with himself. I also never received any replies to my EMails and I gave up sending recordings.

However, I did learn some things that my Dad hadn't taught me and I think it was kind of worth my time - I guess.

The PTG route seems like a better way to go to me.

Good luck.


Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7 - Roland FP80
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#2257807 - 04/06/14 07:13 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
My own learning path was varied and included:

A degree in mechanical engineering.
Three years music at university.
Five years professional playing experience on cruise ships.
Eight years teaching in public school.
Volunteering at a rebuilding shop.
PTG Conferences.
A week long rebuilding course.
Reblitz.
Complete disassembly of an upright and rebuilding.
Being mentored.
Going to PTG meetings.
Organizing PTG associate meetings.
Joining and organizing meetings for Canadian Association of Piano Technicians.
Teaching others to tune.

Don't expect one course will give you all you need to know. Every one of the listed activities and experiences were critical to my learning path. Without even one of them, I wouldn't be the same technician that I am today; I would be missing some skills. It truly is a life long journey.

As a matter of fact, I remember having a distinct feeling of sadness when I started, that I wouldn't be able to live long enough to learn everything.

Good luck with your studies.



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2258267 - 04/07/14 04:30 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 16
kimw Offline
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kimw  Offline
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Posts: 16
Wisconsin
Hi Dustin,

I was you two years ago. After doing a lot of research both online and talking with local tuners that I have known for years, I went with the American School of Piano Tuning. I did look at Randy Potter's course as well, but I didn't get a good feel for it and the American School course seemed to fit well with my timeline and learning style. I liked the way the course is laid out. They have been very responsive to my needs and questions. I always get a live person on the phone as well as a quick response to my emails.

I have supplemented my learning with the Reblitz text and with another book recommended by one of my mentors. "On Pitch" by Rick Baldassin. This has been an excellent text that has helped me to resolve some of my tuning results that I have not been happy with.

There is no better teacher than actually doing the job. Once you have the basics down, you have to practice, practice, and practice some more. I learn something new with each piano I tune.

Best of luck.
Kim

#2258321 - 04/07/14 06:07 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Mar 2008
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
Practice, and practice with guidance if possible, allow to get to the level where you can have some benefits of training, specific curses, etc.

I have seen missing totally the benefit of high-level trainings because they where not yet at the précédent level of knowledge.
Then one make no relation with what is shown, technical gestures, and his own practice, an it is just a loss of time.

It really se to work level by level in that that trade. At some point your personal experiences begin to be coherent and useful to discover more by yourself.
But exchanges with peers stay indispensable to evolve whatever your knowledge is.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2258384 - 04/07/14 08:58 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Sep 2009
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R_B Offline
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R_B  Offline
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Posts: 939
Thanks B8Hoven986,
Hmmm, from a cursory reading of the PTG web site it would SEEM that anyone can join for $150.
Then, as a member buy the 22 years of journal on DVD for $50.
Add a few bux for shipping - LOTS of good stuff for just over $200 including all the benefits of membership.
Probably a LOT more than I could digest for quite a while, though I would fill in with books and other reading.

Given that information of this type isn't time sensitive, WOW - a deal.
MAYBE get the later issues later, MUCH LATER - if I ever catch up from 1979 laugh

#2258414 - 04/07/14 10:06 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: R_B]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
JonBall Offline
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JonBall  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
Western Massachusetts
Hi, R_B. I just wanted to point out that the $150 you mentioned is the application fee (a one-time fee when you first apply for membership in the PTG). The actual membership dues are $298/year, which is comprised of $273 for an Associate's membership and then $25 which would be your local chapter dues.

The first year is a little expensive: $150 + $298 = $448, but after that, it's just the $298. Remember, though, that included in that $298, you get a 1 year subscription to the PT Journal, and you'll have access to the PTG store, discussion groups, a directory of all the members,and other online things. You can also download the PT Journal in PDF format which makes it very easy to do a search on anything in the magazine.

You would also be able to attend your local chapter meetings which often has interesting demonstrations or presentations and gives you a chance to mingle with technicians in your area. So there are potential benefits on a local level, as well.

It might seem a little on the high side, but I like to keep in mind that the money goes toward supporting all the PTG members in a variety of ways. So to me, I'm really putting the money toward helping myself and others.


Jon Ball
Associate PTG Member
Yamaha GB1
#2258415 - 04/07/14 10:06 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Mark Cerisano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
You must get personal instruction. That is a given. Without it, you will go down the "Oh this stuff is so simple. I know exactly what I am doing" and then you will start posting Youtube videos showing the world how easy it is to tune pianos. (There's tons out there already.)

If you continue to learn, you will eventually delete all those videos out of embarrassment.

You can not learn how to tune pianos from a book or magazine.

Comments, techs?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2258418 - 04/07/14 10:09 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: kimw]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Mark Cerisano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,998
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by kimw

There is no better teacher than actually doing the job. Once you have the basics down, you have to practice, practice, and practice some more. I learn something new with each piano I tune.


Practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent.

Get professional personalized instruction from a professional as soon as possible. This will save you years of frustration.

Can anyone else vouch for this?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2258434 - 04/07/14 10:57 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Sep 2009
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R_B Offline
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R_B  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 939
Thanks Jon,
I was about to go to bed and recalled the part about the $150 being a non-refundable application fee that is NOT applied to the dues.
So I was just about to ask what the actual dues are laugh

Still not THAT bad though.
At this point it is an "interest", I have no intention (yet) to practice.
If I take it further I would find someone to study under, and/or get a scrap piano to dissect.

I've certainly blown more than $500 on less worthwhile interests laugh
Boston, Mass would be my local chapter, their web site seems to indicate that they are quite active. They meet about halfway between where I live and "Boston" - the city itself.
A couple of members are within a few miles of me, in adjacent towns.




#2556869 - 07/15/16 08:15 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 142
Mario Bruneau Offline
Full Member
Mario Bruneau  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 142
Québec, Canada
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
My own learning path was varied and included:

A degree in mechanical engineering.
Three years music at university.
Five years professional playing experience on cruise ships.
Eight years teaching in public school.
Volunteering at a rebuilding shop.
PTG Conferences.
A week long rebuilding course.
Reblitz.
Complete disassembly of an upright and rebuilding.
Being mentored.
Going to PTG meetings.
Organizing PTG associate meetings.
Joining and organizing meetings for Canadian Association of Piano Technicians.
Teaching others to tune.

Don't expect one course will give you all you need to know. Every one of the listed activities and experiences were critical to my learning path. Without even one of them, I wouldn't be the same technician that I am today; I would be missing some skills. It truly is a life long journey.

As a matter of fact, I remember having a distinct feeling of sadness when I started, that I wouldn't be able to live long enough to learn everything.

Good luck with your studies.



Hey Mike, did you know I was the first one to create and build a website on that domain name http://howtotunepianos.com/ in your signature?

I hope you have success with it...

I have change it to http://pianotuninghowto.com

regards,
Mario Bruneau

#2556889 - 07/15/16 10:09 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Mario Bruneau]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 294
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member
Herr Weiss  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 294
New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted by Mario Bruneau

Hey Mike, did you know I was the first one to create and build a website on that domain name http://howtotunepianos.com/ in your signature?

I hope you have success with it...

I have change it to http://pianotuninghowto.com

regards,
Mario Bruneau



His name is not Mike and he is also no longer a member of this fine site; banned for life. whistle



"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
#2557047 - 07/16/16 06:13 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
HelloMrZebra Offline
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HelloMrZebra  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
I am currently in the Randy Potter program and I have to agree that it can be difficult having Randy respond to emails, although, I've left voice mails and he usually returns them within a couple days at the most. He is a very busy person and as far as I am concerned it is just him and his wife who run the business. He teaches seminars globally, tunes pianos, runs a business, and family so he's just juggling a lot. I agree with a lot of what has been said and there's really some excellent advice.

I own the Reblitz book and the Randy Potter materials which encompasses his own 'book' which is like 7 lbs ( LOL) and a range of other books. And yes his book reads as if he were speaking to an audience full of non-important stories, however, I have learned a lot so far about the tuning process from his book. I think his tuning DVD could go a little further in detail and they are also very old being made in 1990 or so. It's nice to have an all encompassing resource to read, but even I have had to find other resources that " fill in the blanks " or to get more information or different perspective. I would check out Bill Bremmer's resources--very helpful I thought.

Personally, I find the Piano Tech industry very cryptic. But maybe I haven't found the right Tech to mentor me.. The guy I take piano lessons with tunes pianos, but he doesn't seem interested in helping me ( lol ) I paid him to show me his temperament but that was a waste of money as I have found out because he did all the work and I was dumbfounded by his temperment( was really dumb of me should have done the work and him watch.) I'm going to heed the advice here and get in touch with the Cincinnati PTG chapter, and see if I can get help. I did happen across a very good opportunity to practice tuning pianos in this dudes shop. He doesn't tune pianos and he's young just getting into piano sales business so it really worked out for us.

If you want to know more about the Randy Potter course I can try to help answer questions, as I always carry the materials in my car.

-Jon
Cincinnati, OH

#2557049 - 07/16/16 06:19 PM Re: Home study correspondence courses? [Re: Dustin Spray]  
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
HelloMrZebra Offline
Full Member
HelloMrZebra  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
Also, it may help to get the Randy Potter diploma just to intrigue customers.. Not really sure if it helps or not as I am just starting to get the hang of tuning. I use tuninglab android app to help gauge my tuning.. However I don't want to get use to that, but it's so hard to distinguish coincidental partials from all the other overtones.. So what I've been doing is using the tuninglab app and use a tempermant sequence using all the checks I've learned.


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