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No need to get caught up in semantics. This isn't a question of semantics.
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You are questioning these guys' definition of "live" and getting caught up in the details of whether entering MIDI values through something besides a keyboard counts. Total semantics. It's just argument for argument's sake at this point and ignoring the point they are making: there is a group of people that is not too concerned with playability, but for the most part, they are not in this forum.
Seriously, must you fight with everyone, all the time?
Last edited by gvfarns; 02/11/13 06:16 PM.
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You are questioning these guys' definition of "live" I asked Macy to define what he means. He has yet to see the post and provide a response. That is not questioning his use of the term. He has not provided a definition to question. If I knew his definition and did not agree with it that might be questioning his use of the term. No one has done that.
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Ampy: What I'm talking about is that if I grab my mouse, load up cubase and a VST piano, then I could program in a Chopin Etude (if I had tons of time and patience anyhow)... I could fake my way into the pedal, etc... And nothing would be in real time, so the LIVE feeling is irrelevant here. And I've already mentioned that this is PW and people are thinking about piano in different terms than a media composer does. As for my second part: You said They are not going to sound like an acoustic piano. They are going to sound like a recording of an acoustic piano. Having the software playing into speakers connected directly to your digital piano or computer isn't going to change that. And I'm saying that if you think about it whatever it is you're listening from your speakers, whether a CD, or an mp3 file, or youtube, or from cloud services, from streaming services, or whatever else digital is, again a recording and nothing more. It doesn't sound like an acoustic piano cause it's not: It's a 'photograph' (audiograph? an instant capture of the audio?) of somebody playing an acoustic piano. NOT a real acoustic piano. A real acoustic piano is what you get in your house when you're playing with you acoustic instrument, or in the concert hall, etc...
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must you fight with everyone, all the time? Don't start your antagonistic games again gvfarns....you of all people ask this?
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must you fight with everyone, all the time? Don't start your antagonistic games again gvfarns....you of all people ask this? I only ever fight with you. You are the common link that I see, not me.
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Ampy: What I'm talking about is that if I grab my mouse, load up cubase and a VST piano, then I could program in a Chopin Etude (if I had tons of time and patience anyhow)... I could fake my way into the pedal, etc... And nothing would be in real time, so the LIVE feeling is irrelevant here. And I've already mentioned that this is PW and people are thinking about piano in different terms than a media composer does. Yes I thought of that but who really would do this? It is the exception that someone might approach a composition (meaning create music not write a song). It was a given that the OP was wanting to play their piano rather than use buttons and MIDI dashes in a DAW to make a melody. That LIVE playing concept makes me think more of gigging. If it is just playing piano the "LIVE" is not necessary. As for my second part: You said They are not going to sound like an acoustic piano. They are going to sound like a recording of an acoustic piano. Having the software playing into speakers connected directly to your digital piano or computer isn't going to change that. And I'm saying that if you think about it whatever it is you're listening from your speakers, whether a CD, or an mp3 file, or youtube, or from cloud services, from streaming services, or whatever else digital is, again a recording and nothing more. It doesn't sound like an acoustic piano cause it's not: It's a 'photograph' (audiograph? an instant capture of the audio?) of somebody playing an acoustic piano. NOT a real acoustic piano. A real acoustic piano is what you get in your house when you're playing with you acoustic instrument, or in the concert hall, etc... Then we are saying the same thing here. I said something similar and I did not see what you intended by saying it. It was a similar point I had made but you did not say you were agreeing or disagreeing so I wasn't sure what you meant..
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must you fight with everyone, all the time? Don't start your antagonistic games again gvfarns....you of all people ask this? I only ever fight with you. You are the common link that I see, not me. Funny, you don't see yourself.
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Ampy: What I'm talking about is that if I grab my mouse, load up cubase and a VST piano, then I could program in a Chopin Etude (if I had tons of time and patience anyhow)... I could fake my way into the pedal, etc... And nothing would be in real time, so the LIVE feeling is irrelevant here. And I've already mentioned that this is PW and people are thinking about piano in different terms than a media composer does. Yes I thought of that but who really would do this? It is the exception that someone might approach a composition (meaning create music not write a song). It was a given that the OP was wanting to play their piano rather than use buttons and MIDI dashes in a DAW to make a melody. That LIVE playing concept makes me think more of gigging. If it is just playing piano the "LIVE" is not necessary. No it's not the exception. I repeat you are in pianoworld, where people mainly care about the live playing of the piano. If you visit other places (I can provide plenty of links, since I work as a composer for computer games, amongst other things) you'll see that what you consider the exception is very much NOT the exception over there... As for my second part: You said They are not going to sound like an acoustic piano. They are going to sound like a recording of an acoustic piano. Having the software playing into speakers connected directly to your digital piano or computer isn't going to change that. And I'm saying that if you think about it whatever it is you're listening from your speakers, whether a CD, or an mp3 file, or youtube, or from cloud services, from streaming services, or whatever else digital is, again a recording and nothing more. It doesn't sound like an acoustic piano cause it's not: It's a 'photograph' (audiograph? an instant capture of the audio?) of somebody playing an acoustic piano. NOT a real acoustic piano. A real acoustic piano is what you get in your house when you're playing with you acoustic instrument, or in the concert hall, etc... Then we are saying the same thing here. I said something similar and I did not see what you intended by saying it. It was a similar point I had made but you did not say you were agreeing or disagreeing so I wasn't sure what you meant.. [/quote]Ok
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No it's not the exception.........you are in pianoworld, where people mainly care about the live playing of the piano. It is the exception here yes. The OP is interested in software for playing their piano.
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... That is, I agree, you would tend to alter your playing based on audible feedback as you play, yet it sounds like, at least with that software in that example, the player was unable to sufficiently do so to create a natural result, that he still found himself needing to edit the results despite getting feedback as he played! I think the difference is that it is pretty difficult to alter your playing in real time to "fix" single notes that are noticeably wrong at specific (and different) velocities. If you play the piece once it's impossible unless you keep an 88-note x 127 velocity correction matrix in your head for the piano and can apply it in real-time as you play. I suspect that is impossible for even the best player. I wrote software that does exactly that and automatically (not in real time) pre-calculates the correction matrix from digital audio measurements of any software piano. (I should point out that is not the same thing as pre-mapping samples at one velocity with different timbre to replace samples at other velocity levels that have significant timbre inconsistencies. I did some of that manually with the EWQL Steinway piano.) On the other hand if you play a piece enough times, you can learn the "bad" notes (at specific velocities) and try to remember to alter them as you play. I'm sure the best players can be more successful at that than I am. But trying to correct in real time for bad notes that stick out abruptly is quite different than what I meant by altering your playing from feedback as you play different pianos. I was really referring to what you do playing different acoustic pianos, as you change your playing to best fit the unique timbre (and volume) changes vs velocity characteristics of those pianos. In digital piano terms, you create a new velocity curve shape (vs altering specific notes) for each piano based on feedback as you play, and it is really multiple velocity curves that are different in different sections of the keyboard and for different pieces of music. That sounds complicated but it's really what we do rather intuitively as we play different pianos. This also points out an issue with velocity layers... the more there are (and especially if they are not blended in some way), the more points there are of potential abrupt transition, so it can be a trade-off. True. It is easier for a software/digital piano designer to make 4 layers of samples monotonic in volume and (even more importantly in my measurements) consistent in smooth timbre variation than 20 layers. I have lots of measured data that shows some pretty poor results. But it can also be done well with effort. And the tradeoff with too few layers is obviously less timbre range, which equates to an unrealistic piano. The Ivory II pianos illustrate that point very well since they allow you to choose samples sets with 4 to 20 layers for the same piano.
Macy
CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
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I was only talking about LIVE playing As opposed to what? You can't get much use out of piano software unless you hit notes on a keyboard... By LIVE playing I'm talking about sitting at a piano keyboard and playing the piano in real time just as I would play an acoustic piano. I wish it to sound to me just as though I'm sitting at an acoustic piano while playing, not like it sounds sitting across the room listening to someone else play, or a recording of me playing, which has a different purpose. Perhaps you don't play much solo piano, else I think the difference would be quite clear to you. I'm not talking about making a recording of a piano, which can be post-processed to correct or add notes, add EQ, reverb, change levels or compression in a mix with other instruments, etc., or composing music via entering scores which are converted to MIDI, or any other non-real-time creation or modification of piano sound. So I answered your question, which already seemed quite clear to others that have commented in this thread. Your main purpose here seems to be to create argument rather than foster thoughtful discussion, so I'll try to avoid further conflict with you.
Macy
CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
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The fuse is lit. Expect more fireworks.
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So I answered your question, which already seemed quite clear to others that have commented in this thread. Your main purpose here seems to be to create argument rather than foster thoughtful discussion, so I'll try to avoid further conflict with you. Quite hypocritical of you to throw all of this in.
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Like I said, the common link.
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I think the difference is that it is pretty difficult to alter your playing in real time to "fix" single notes that are noticeably wrong at specific (and different) velocities. If you play the piece once it's impossible unless you keep an 88-note x 127 velocity correction matrix in your head for the piano and can apply it in real-time as you play. I see your point, and agree that it is not a realistic solution to get around an unnatural jump in the sampled piano's response. But I consider that unnatural jump to be a flaw in the sampled piano. I was actually thinking about pianos that are not inherently flawed like that, but just require a player who is paying attention... that is, more along the lines of your other point, "I was really referring to what you do playing different acoustic pianos, as you change your playing to best fit the unique timbre (and volume) changes vs velocity characteristics of those pianos." Yes, if you start playing a particular software piano from a particular keybed, and it seems to get, for example, too aggressive sounding too easily, you will probably automatically adjust your playing to pull back a bit in response... and if instead you send that soft piano a MIDI file generated from some other keybed/sound-source combination, so that we are hearing the piano without the benefit of it having been triggered by a player who was "paying attention," we're not likely to hear its dynamic response at its best.
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I was only talking about LIVE playing As opposed to what? You can't get much use out of piano software unless you hit notes on a keyboard... By LIVE playing I'm talking about sitting at a piano keyboard and playing the piano in real time just as I would play an acoustic piano. I wish it to sound to me just as though I'm sitting at an acoustic piano while playing, not like it sounds sitting across the room listening to someone else play, or a recording of me playing, which has a different purpose. Perhaps you don't play much solo piano, else I think the difference would be quite clear to you. I'm not talking about making a recording of a piano, which can be post-processed to correct or add notes, add EQ, reverb, change levels or compression in a mix with other instruments, etc., or composing music via entering scores which are converted to MIDI, or any other non-real-time creation or modification of piano sound. So I answered your question, which already seemed quite clear to others that have commented in this thread. Your main purpose here seems to be to create argument rather than foster thoughtful discussion, so I'll try to avoid further conflict with you. That's what I would imply also by live playing. I want my piano to sound like a real piano in my living room, not a piano through a set of speakers. Difficult expectation seeing that all digital piano's come through a speaker, but in my limited experience so far, I was really impressed by the demo of Vienna Imperial, which seems to convey the power and resonance of a real live piano moreso than the others. One thing I like about my Yamaha CLP340 is that the lower registers conveys a real resonance and fullness, like a real piano. It seems so far that VST's can't do that and I don't know why, cause isn't that what the Yamaha is anyway - just a VST?
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One thing I like about my Yamaha CLP340 is that the lower registers conveys a real resonance and fullness, like a real piano. It seems so far that VST's can't do that and I don't know why, cause isn't that what the Yamaha is anyway - just a VST? That's interesting. Are you evaluating the VST's and CLP in the same way (with the same headphones and audio interface)? Just wondering. I have always found the lows on good sampled software pianos to be pretty satisfying. But one's impressions of this can easily be affected by the speakers/headphones used.
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Ampy: What I'm talking about is that if I grab my mouse, load up cubase and a VST piano, then I could program in a Chopin Etude (if I had tons of time and patience anyhow)... I could fake my way into the pedal, etc...
Well, the same way you can in theory also "fake" real acoustic piano. I mean, program a computer that behaves in a certain way (robotic movements for keys, pedals, etc. ), put it in fron of an acoustic piano and here you go. So, this seems to be getting to a point of a bit of nonsense to me. If you use the method as you describe, it's impossible to achieve the result of playing the keyboard, just the same as that computer would never achieve real performance on acoustic.
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Ampy: What I'm talking about is that if I grab my mouse, load up cubase and a VST piano, then I could program in a Chopin Etude (if I had tons of time and patience anyhow)... I could fake my way into the pedal, etc...
Well, the same way you can in theory also "fake" real acoustic piano. I mean, program a computer that behaves in a certain way (robotic movements for keys, pedals, etc. ), put it in fron of an acoustic piano and here you go. So, this seems to be getting to a point of a bit of nonsense to me. If you use the method as you describe, it's impossible to achieve the result of playing the keyboard, just the same as that computer would never achieve real performance on acoustic. Look... I work as a composer in the computer games industry. As such I'm required to produce the end product (recording) in my own studio. I can tell you very well that almost all media composers (and believe me there are TONS of them out there), will have to fake their way into inputing data with the keyboard, or mouse, or other means... The minute you start mocking up an orchestral work, you're done with: There's no midi violin, or if there is the person behind it does't ALSO have a midi piano, AND a midi wind instrument and midi drums. So evidently you're forced to input parts with your mouse, or keyboard or other means... :-/ Like it or not, it's been done extensively... Oh heck... I'll just post some examples: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/702/703/413.htm Just get here and listen to the "rite of spring". It's perfect? Heck no, but the point is that Stravinsky's rite of spring was PROGRAMMED one way or another. NOT played with live instruments or midi instruments or anything. Or try this then: http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/ags/Harris_office1.mp3 (that's mine, obviously inspired by a certain prelude! ). I'm not saying they are perfect, but I reckon that if my clients and audience are happy and not hugely nitpicking, then it's fine... (If you want I can change the feeling of the 'Harris Office' track to be much more rubato... But not tonight)... ____________________ guys, honestly. Exactly because it's impossible for a single person to have valid experience in all the instruments, but also this very person IS required to come up with complete orchestral settings, the idea of inputing data with a mouse, keyboard, whatever method is very much here! It's not nonsense. It's what you hear in the TV every day!
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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