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Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss] #2024117
01/30/13 03:34 PM
01/30/13 03:34 PM
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Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by beeboss
Thanks Dave. Yes that is how I did it, basically make my own playalongs. It only takes a few minutes so i do a new one every few days. I like those Carman drums, they are the closest i have found to playing with a real drummer.


BTW I used to have such difficulty following a rhythm section with such an open sound on drums and bass. And now I prefer it too. I guess it just needs a very strong sense of internal time.

Don't you get more gigs playing bass?


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Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss] #2024118
01/30/13 03:34 PM
01/30/13 03:34 PM
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Posts: 1,477
Lower Mainland, BC
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
I am playing double bass as well, but it is a bit out of tune cos I only started a few months ago.
It is a tough tune and i am a way away from being really relaxed with it.

http://www.divshare.com/download/23644332-ed9

bonus points if anyone can hear how I changed the sequence.



Sounds great, Beeboss! How are the drums going, btw?


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2024156
01/30/13 04:45 PM
01/30/13 04:45 PM
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Posts: 1,402
uk south
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beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzwee


Don't you get more gigs playing bass?


Sometimes I play gigs on the electric bass, but I have only been playing the double bass a few months.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy] #2024162
01/30/13 04:47 PM
01/30/13 04:47 PM
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uk south
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beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy


Sounds great, Beeboss! How are the drums going, btw?


Thanks Sceptical. Drums are going ok but my main focus is the double bass (and cello) at the moment. I am never going to be a real drummer but I am enjoying doing time exercises, these should benefit all instruments.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss] #2024193
01/30/13 05:53 PM
01/30/13 05:53 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,379
Stockholm, Sweden
chrisbell Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
Nice! 3/4 is really cool and works real good.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2027594
02/05/13 05:54 PM
02/05/13 05:54 PM
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Stockholm, Sweden
chrisbell Offline
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dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.

And have a listen (or read the transcript why you listen to the album)to the interview: http://www.npr.org/2013/02/02/170882668/wayne-shorter-on-jazz-how-do-you-rehearse-the-unknown

I mean the man is only 79 . . . and he plays like a mother . . .
And the other players . . . Danílo Perez = wow!

"Jazz shouldn't have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that you're required to sound like jazz. For me, the word jazz means, I dare you. And the effort to break out of something is worth more than you getting an A in syncopation. And this music, it's dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?"

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2027711
02/05/13 08:56 PM
02/05/13 08:56 PM
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beeboss Offline
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Looking forward to checking out Wayne's new album. His music is always amazing, and his band have such incredible freedom. I love his philosophy as well.
Listening to Orbits now ... wow!!!

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell] #2027790
02/06/13 12:38 AM
02/06/13 12:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by chrisbell
dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.

And have a listen (or read the transcript why you listen to the album)to the interview: http://www.npr.org/2013/02/02/170882668/wayne-shorter-on-jazz-how-do-you-rehearse-the-unknown

I mean the man is only 79 . . . and he plays like a mother . . .
And the other players . . . Danílo Perez = wow!

"Jazz shouldn't have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that you're required to sound like jazz. For me, the word jazz means, I dare you. And the effort to break out of something is worth more than you getting an A in syncopation. And this music, it's dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?"


Excellent Chris! Keep posting this kind of stuff.


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My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2027809
02/06/13 01:22 AM
02/06/13 01:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
Sydney
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custard apple Offline
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Thank you Chris. This combo is sure modern and creative.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell] #2028326
02/06/13 07:35 PM
02/06/13 07:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,477
Lower Mainland, BC
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted by chrisbell
dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.


How is it that you can hear this in (where are you again? Stockholm?) and I can't hear it in Canada!?!?

I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy] #2028358
02/06/13 08:44 PM
02/06/13 08:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,070
Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Leicester, UK
Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy


I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


scept! check out what happened to this guy for saying the "wrong" thing about wayne shorter! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Hoffman/137654883177

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook] #2028368
02/06/13 08:54 PM
02/06/13 08:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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jazzwee  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by printer1
Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy


I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


scept! check out what happened to this guy for saying the "wrong" thing about wayne shorter! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Hoffman/137654883177


I don't get it. Didn't find anything there.

I watched Wayne and Herbie last year and have tickets again for May. Clearly they're in Free Jazz territory when I saw it. The only thing fixed was a melodic motif. Key, rhythm, etc. was all out the window. Even the motif was returned to only ever so often. It probably surprised me when I saw it the first time because I was expecting the usual standards from Herbie. But now I'm going to be more receptive. I actually haven't heard any recordings that are similar to what they played.

Wayne just showed up at Disney hall with a few melodic fragments from the night before. That was the basis of the concert. Nothing planned whatsoever. It was pretty clearly just a work of the moment. No "heads". Drummer and bass were free.




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Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2028486
02/07/13 01:19 AM
02/07/13 01:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
Sydney
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custard apple Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Sydney
Originally Posted by jazzwee


I watched Wayne and Herbie last year and have tickets again for May. Clearly they're in Free Jazz territory when I saw it. The only thing fixed was a melodic motif. Key, rhythm, etc. was all out the window. Even the motif was returned to only ever so often.



So what held Herbie's solo together, like how did his solo develop ?
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple] #2028500
02/07/13 02:19 AM
02/07/13 02:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by custard apple

So what held Herbie's solo together, like how did his solo develop ?
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.


He would start with the motif. Repeat many times. Then change the harmony underneath. Until the harmony was completely unrelated. Then move the motif to shifting keys. Kept it recognizable somewhat.

Then abandoned the motif completely. Then when you thought the motif was forgotten, he starts playing it again a little bit. Then abandons it again. Then finishes off with the motif being very strong.

Other than the motif, there was NOTHING else constant. Not the rhythm. Not the harmony. Not the bass line. NOTHING. You couldn't even tell what meter they were playing.

Wayne particularly used LOTS OF SPACE. LOTS AND LOTS. No fear of space. He would purposely put his hand on the piano, away from the sax for many measures (whatever a measure was).

Underneath this motif, the drums was changing rhythms. The bass player following along but the harmony wasn't connected. I had no idea if they had chords.

The only tune that was 'known' all night was Cantaloupe Island. And even that was hardly recognizable.

This is the new experimental Quartet. Like a generation past what they did with Miles Davis.

It taught me something about music. The melodic motif was so repeated and ingrained, modified, rearranged but it was still there. That was the only glue. Nothing else showed the form. Interesting concept.

BTW - I don't think they knew where they were going either. Some of these tunes were 20 minutes long. Everything was about the moment.

So because there was some minimal structure (motif), this isn't completely free jazz. There's a shape to what they were doing. A buildup of tension/release. But it was close to free. Actually, when there was no motif (like in the middle), it was pretty much free jazz.

It was pretty deep even for hardcore jazz aficionados like me. At times, I thought of the "Emperor's New Clothes". It probably took me a day to appreciate what I just heard.



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Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple] #2028535
02/07/13 04:14 AM
02/07/13 04:14 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,379
Stockholm, Sweden
chrisbell Offline
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Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by custard apple
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.
Paul Bley, yeah! Listen to the solo piano album "Open to Love", it was recorded around the same time as "Facing you" - same piano, same studio.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy] #2028536
02/07/13 04:16 AM
02/07/13 04:16 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,379
Stockholm, Sweden
chrisbell Offline
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Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy
How is it that you can hear this in (where are you again? Stockholm?) and I can't hear it in Canada!?!?
Stockholm it is. Sorry to hear that. Do you have Spotify? The album is there. But I can really recommend it, it's on iTunes.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2028551
02/07/13 05:24 AM
02/07/13 05:24 AM
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Sydney
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custard apple Offline
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Thanks jazzwee and Chris for your insight.
I've just had the pleasure of listening to Paul Bley play Ida Lupino on you-tube.
I was intrigued by his use of space and the linking of his motifs.
I plan to listen to more later.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee] #2028614
02/07/13 08:55 AM
02/07/13 08:55 AM
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Chicago
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Chicago
I listened to Shorter's new CD, and also heard the group in concert a couple of years ago. While I admire what they are doing, in all honestly, it's a chore to listen to. I can do without melody and harmony if there is a good groove, or without a good groove if there are great melodies and harmonies, but throw away all three, and I find nothing of interest. I've tried to like free jazz for years, and here in Chicago, with the AACM, we've got plenty of it. It just doesn't appeal to me at all. This is consistent with my taste in all the art forms. In classical music, for example, I love Shostakovich and Prokofiev, but can't really listen to Schoenberg, Webern or Berg.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo] #2028644
02/07/13 09:50 AM
02/07/13 09:50 AM
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Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Leicester, UK
this is going to a good thread!

cAPPLE & cBELL

http://quentintschofen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/PaulBleyClosersmaller.pdf

transcription of bley on the the first track of "open to love."

jazzwee .. that link to the facebook page a couple of posts back ... the page belongs to a very (VERY) talented young sax guy in NYC. he posted about Wayne Shorter using very crude language ... about as crude as cab be in english ... consequently, his facebook page has 400+ comments, maybe now 500+ comments most of which question his sanity, judgement, etc.

some of the comments are from top-level jazz musicians. anyway, it's a very interesting page with all those comments about all kinds of things.

... most people come into the world w/out love 4 Schoeberg, Berg, Webern, etc. Only some leave the world w/acquired love for those composers .. and cecil taylor, etc.

then there's open to love which kind of isn't this or that ...

has anyone looked at a piano transcription of the rite of spring?.


Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook] #2028666
02/07/13 10:21 AM
02/07/13 10:21 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,379
Stockholm, Sweden
chrisbell Offline
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Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by printer1
Thanks for the transcription!

Originally Posted by printer1
... most people come into the world w/out love 4 Schoeberg, Berg, Webern, etc. Only some leave the world w/acquired love for those composers .. and cecil taylor, etc.
Well I grew up with the music of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Boulez, Dallapiccola, et consortes (my mother was a concert-singer, 20th century contemporary music was her forte) so you could say I came into this world with a love for the sound of different harmonies, then again my dad played jazz in bands in Soho; so I have one foot in each tradition . . .

Originally Posted by printer1
then there's open to love which kind of isn't this or that ...
Amen to that.

Originally Posted by printer1
has anyone looked at a piano transcription of the rite of spring?.
Yes. Both the solo piano version as well as the original piano a quatre mains version (the one that Stravinsky did and performed together with Debussy a year before the orchestral version made it's first performance.
The music is great and as awesome as the quatre mains is, it's pretty noisy. I do prefer the orchestral version. But maybe this is because I've recorded and produced an album with the four-handed version. So I'm a tad bit tired of the banging . .
smile

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