Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Project: 120-year-old 'free' Weber upright - lots of pics!

Ed, if you're still around, would you mind explaining further??

Thanks,
Melly

Went through the photos today. I've got a piano moving company that is going to pick it up in about 6 weeks and get it here. About $700 to move it 300 miles. Could have had it here sooner, but I would rather wait and get it here cheaper heh.

More pics here (with the action removed): http://imgur.com/a/5bKiz

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Yep, that's the experience that I had. The quotes I got for a "full rebuild", minus cabinet refinishing, ranged from $10,000 to $30,000 Add another $5,000 for a refinished cabinet. I just can't afford that, and I have no desire to go into debt to restore an old piano (or buy a new one). I envy the people who can pull that off financially. One piano store employee I talked to said every now and then people just walk in and drop $30k on a piano without even playing them for more than a few minutes. One person even bought a large grand for their kid's birthday present! Wow. It must be nice to be in the 1% heh.

Of course, "full rebuild" was different for different techs. At the $30,000 end, that meant a new soundboard, pin block, strings, and totally refurbished action. At the $10,000 end, that meant just strings, tuning and minimal action and regulating work to get it up to snuff. I did get quotes from a rebuilder who only does uprights, one who does mostly grands, and one who does both. Of course, the guy who rarely does uprights was the highest heh.



Heh, that would be nice. I have a feeling it falls under the old adage about contractors in general: "The good ones aren't cheap, and the cheap ones aren't good."



Sounds fun to me. I've got plenty of time to "read the manual" before the piano even gets here. I could use a project that doens't require digging with a shovel, getting covered with spiders in the crawlspace, or building a fence haha.



My plan is to approach it in stages. First off, get the piano in my house ($700). Second, refurbish the keybed (priced out less than $200 in parts and tools). Next, dampers (less than $100 for parts). Next, practice rail felt (about $10 counting glue). Next, buckskin replacement (about $50 in parts). Next, either restringing and bridge repair, or just tuning up what I've got. After all that's done I should be able to work on regulation ($250 for tools).

I don't think I'm good enough of a piano player to really 'deserve' a $30,000 restoration, but hopefully my piano skills will improve with my piano maintenance skills, so as I get better at playing, I can get better at regulating (and possibly tuning if I go down that road). This piano means a lot to me, and I'd rather it be "mine" than just something I threw a bunch of money at. Also, http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722

After that, tuning? New strings? Instead of paying out thousands of dollars up front, or a few thousand as each stage of restoration is completed, I only pay when I want to work on it, and the dollar amounts are an order of magnitude smaller. Sounds good to me

You are lucky to live somewhere where piano restoration is inexpensive and quick - all the well-known rebuilders in my city have a wait list, plus 3-6 months while they have your piano. It also seems they have much higher prices since there is no way I will be at 1/2 to 3/4 of the cost doing it myself, even with premium parts. Probably more in the 1/4 to 1/2 range. For example, just doing the minor action work the piano needs, and regulation afterward, will cost me less than $1,000 in parts and tools, versus the cheapest quote I got for that of $3,000 (new hammers not included in that either). :sigh: "If I were a rich man..."



I chuckle when I see on piano tech's websites: "a piano has thousands of parts in it, you must hire a professional". Yes, there are obviously a lot of parts. But on an upright, you've got say 60 parts in the action of one key. Multiply that by 88 and you've got 5,000+ parts. Of course, "5,000 parts" sounds a lot scarier than "60 parts repeated 88 times." Obviously it's not going to be easy either, but that's what the books are for

Well, it sounds like we're both in the same boat then. Best of luck to both of us

Rob

Greetings,
>>My plan is to approach it in stages. First off, get the piano in my house ($700). Second, refurbish the keybed (priced out less than $200 in parts and tools). Next, dampers (less than $100 for parts). Next, practice rail felt (about $10 counting glue). Next, buckskin replacement (about $50 in parts). Next, either restringing and bridge repair, or just tuning up what I've got. After all that's done I should be able to work on regulation ($250 for tools).
After that, tuning? New strings? Instead of paying out thousands of dollars up front, or a few thousand as each stage of restoration is completed, I only pay when I want to work on it, and the dollar amounts are an order of magnitude smaller. <<

Greetings,
This sounds like several situations I have seen over the years, and every one ended with a lot of expensive parts and tools in boxes next to an unfinished and damaged piano. I hope you can have better results, but don't expect it to progress smoothly, you will find anomalies and unexpected damage.
It is naive to think with $100 is all that the dampers will cost, and if the dampers are shot, so are the hammers,(usually). There is a lot of fragile wood, damper levers are quite thin, and springs are fragile. If you are going to replace hammers, you will need to learn to repin, and probably how to replace an upright shank. The keybed, if refurbished, might need new pins as well as bushings, punchings, and back rail felt. Repinning requiries a total respacing of the keys, too.
If you must go at this, plan on several hundred hours to overcome a learning curve that most experienced techs have had to go through to avoid doing more damage than good. This stuff looks pretty simple, but in practice, you are looking at a mechanism with tons of force behind it. A piano warps, swells, and changes, so quality piano repair is done by those that have some idea of what sort of tolerances are required for the piano to play year-round.
If the pinblock is cracked or falling apart, say goodbye to the piano or your wallet. There are very few techs out there that can successfully replace a pinblock in an upright. If considering having someone do this, make sure you talk to tuners that have tuned the pianos afterwards, (not the tech that did the work and does the tuning).
Regards,
Regards,

I'm not an auto mechanic, but I rebuild a 1991 V-6 engine and it ran very well for several years before I sold it.
I'm not a plumber, but I fixed a leaking and clogged drain pipe.
I'm not an electrician, but I installed a new sub-panel and wired up a workshop in my garage.
I'm not a certified hardwood flooring installer, but I installed 2.25" red oak flooring in our house.
I'm not a house painter, but I painted the exterior of our home.

Point being that Fishbulb may not be a piano tech, but I bet if he can build a fence and get dirty in his crawl space then he can have some fun working on a piano that most think isn't worth it. It's good to be forewarned, but then a liberal dose of positive encouragement is in order. You can do it!

Much of the cost is labor. Ask about the cost to spray on a new finish if you've done all of the work to get down to bare wood. I bet it is far more affordable.

Thanks for the advice. It is interesting that you mention this, as I've read that in other places, but with few details. Do you have any more examples of what are the common things that inexperienced people break when working on a piano the first time? Rookie mistakes? Do they snap of hammers, damper levers, and springs, or is there something else...??? I understand if you don't want to give away trade secrets though

I must have done the math wrong when planning my order for the dampers. I'll have to measure again. From what I can tell, the hammers are usable (for a novice piano player like myself anyway) although the dampers don't perform well and certainly don't look too good. So, I don't plan on replacing the hammers any time soon. For the rest (key pins, respacing, etc.) I will cross that bridge when I come to it. Slow and steady wins the race.



Yes that is why I have been obsessing about the pinblock. From my analysis and pictures (above), it seems usable. None of the big red flags like doping stains, cracks, warping, delamination, hammered-in pins, or seriously out-of-tune single strings. The unisons were all in tune with themselves, amazingly. To my ear anyway.



Hear hear! Far too few do-it-yourselfers in this day and age. I've done the hardwood flooring thing too, all sorts of weird car things over the years, electrical work (both home and auto), home appliance repair, and a lot of custom computer and electronics building (talk about fragile components!).

Maybe I'll break something. But if you go through life being paralyzed by fear of making a mistake, you never learn any valuable skills. And as we know... "Nunchaku skills... bowhunting skills... computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills!"

It's surprising how much you can improve a piano in reasonable condition with a few basic tools and without replacing anything at all. Taking time to make the most of what you've got could well be the best approach. It would certainly avoid the pitfalls Ed Foote rightly mentions, and it will be an education.

The keys on the 110 year old piano I have at the moment could do with rebushing, and maybe some of the centres need loosening up, but compressed air, tightening loose screws and bolts, setting the treble strings, adjusting dampers, and regulating the action have made a huge difference. The instrument has gone from one that was almost unplayable to one that is a pleasure to play.

The piano is on the truck, coming in a few days!

Soundboard looks pretty good for 120 years old!

Detailed pictures of the back side: http://imgur.com/a/suneG

I do not know whether your tech carries them, but I carry replacement casters. It does not take long to replace them if one has access to the bottom of the piano and one knows what one is doing. So you might ask if your tech can replace that broken one when the piano comes. It can be more difficult later.

Very nice, wish mine looked that good

Rob

Piano delivered! It's in a really nice spot in the living room, near the center of the house, about as far away as possible from windows, heater vents, the bathroom, the kitchen and the fireplace. Hard to dodge all those trouble zones, but my house floor plan allows it. Nearest possible trouble maker is the fireplace, about 8-10ft away on the other side of the room.





I love the tone, despite it being about a 1/4 to a 1/2 tone low and out of tune. The keybed definitely needs some work (center position keys have some side-to-side wobble, key height is a little uneven).

Thoughts on tuning? The piano was restrung about 40-50 years ago. In about a month, after it acclimates, should I just "tune it to itself" (say a 1/4 tone low across the board) until I can get a proper restringing done?

If I try to do a pitch raise to A=440 it seems like there will be a pretty high likelihood of breaking the old strings. The strings aren't rusty that I can SEE but obviously there could be rust in places that I can't see.

Congratulations on your 'new' piano! It is a very handsome beast.

As far as tuning goes, it depends on whether the piano will be used to accompany fixed pitch instruments. If not, then the pitch does not need to be at A-440. That would give you the flexibility to gently do a pitch raise across a number of tunings with less chance of strings breaking.

Enjoy!

Very nice

Rob

Got to cleaning up the tops of the keys yesterday. Used a very, very, very well wrung-out damp rag to wipe up the dust and stains (seems like spray-on furniture polish residue).



The keys were already stamped from the factory, but they were difficult to read. I scrubbed them out with a dry toothbrush to remove the dust, and then carefully penciled in the numbers in the original stamps using a 0.5mm mechanical pencil.



There is a signature on key #88, looks like "A. Bornely" or "A. Barnely". "Barnely" and "Bornely" seem like fairly common last names in New England. "Abornely" and "Abarnely" don't get many results on google, but I suppose that could be it too.



Next step is to finish building my custom action rig. I wanted something more solid than the aluminum clamps that Schaff and NewOctave make. Once I get the rig done, I'll be able to take the action out and clean up that dusty old keybed.

Something to think about with regards to tuning it. Back then (120 years ago) they didn't tune necessarily to A=440. In fact, it was more likely closer to the 1/4 lower you're talking about. Of course, it varied quite a bit, so much so that Verdi stated all of his operas should be done to the tuning of A=432 (about 1/4 step lower than 440). So, I wouldn't necessarily try to bring it up to 440, as it probably never was intended to be there. Unless you have perfect pitch and this bothers you, you will find that the tone is much warmer at 432.

Beautiful instrument! Best of luck with the continued restoration work!

Congratulations on your piano. Quite a handsome old beast it is! I have a soft spot for Webers, having used one of their old grands for many years...till the point it needed rebuilding and I passed it off to another PW member who intends to work on it. It was quite a good piano, though it was from the Aeolian era.

Time for an update.

Well I received most of the tools and felts I have ordered. I will post more pictures as I get to using them.

I am still working on my custom action rack, but it's almost done. I just need to make one more trip to the hardware store I think. Since Reblitz's method of regulating an upright involves removing the action several times, I want to make sure I have a solid, safe place to put it while it's out.

Here is my tuning setup:



That's Tunelab (demo version) on the laptop, and the cheap-and-popular CAD U37 USB Condenser Microphone for tuning and recording. USB mics are very easy to work with compared to having to deal with a mic pre-amp and so forth.

I have found that I get very long, sustained note recognition with TuneLab if I have the mic placed directly in front of the action instead of on top. This requires removing the front panel and fallboard, but it's worth it.

The piano is about 80-85 cents flat of an A-440 tuning (almost a half-step/semitone), so I am actually tuning DOWN slightly to 100 cents flat (a complete half step/semitone low) to safely improve my tuning lever control skills before I start the pitch raise. Not only will I be minimizing the risk of string breakage as a beginner tuner, but also I will be breaking loose any rust spots where the strings are rusted to any bars or pins (if there are any rust spots; the strings are pretty clean).

So far the tuning pins are holding fine, despite the low tuning. Interestingly, they are #1 size, so I'm glad I bought the extra tips for the tuning lever. The #2 tip fits, but is loose even when pushed all the way down to touch the wire coils. The #1 tip fits snugly with about an 1/8" to 1/4" of space between the end of the tip and the wire coil.

Once the piano is fully tuned down to 100 cents flat (of an A-440 tuning), then I'm going to go back over it and raise it up to 50 cents flat, and then go for the final raise to A-440. And then go over it one more time, since it will probably need some fine tuning after getting to A-440. Tedious, but slow an steady wins the race, and lowers the risk of broken strings.

I should be able to get some more work done this weekend if I can get the action rack finished. Then I can take out the keys and clean up that filthy keybed.

Also, I got some more books, to start working on my piano PLAYING skills:



* The Beatles piano songbook (easy piano/beginner)
* Radiohead piano songbook (beginner/intermediate)
* Neil Young piano songbook (easy piano/beginner)

On the songbooks: I have a pile like this too. Then I discovered MusicNotes, and PianoStreet. They're legal download sites for sheet music and they have tons 'o' stuff, including what you show in the photograph. Just sayin', it's available - the books may work best for you.

I like downloads because I can keep all the stuff on my iPad and just have THAT on the piano stand - actually easier to turn 'pages' too, you just swipe with your finger rather than have the mini-wrestling match while you're trying to play something, and of course the iPad never tries to fold itself closed. ;-) Either way, enjoy!

Interesting sites to know about, thanks! I don't have a tablet computer / ipad though, or a printer. So, that would have to be taken into account in the cost for me I guess. I will keep it in mind if I get a tablet someday though.