Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
132 registered members (Alex_, Adypiano, Alex Hutor, ajames, 8opus, anamnesis, 34 invisible), 1,312 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#2025944 - 02/02/13 03:08 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: kapelli]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
zapper Offline
Full Member
zapper  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by kapelli

But the main thinking error is that we just cannot compare DP to acoustic instrument...
They are mode for different people, different needs, different skills. Of course, there is some kind of the common area in the AP and DP usage, but...


are you implying we're different? mad

wink

(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

#2025945 - 02/02/13 03:14 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: Clayman]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Clayman
The OP may have some more or less valid points but I didn't really like the tone of the post. Stirrin' it up a tad, aren't we?

Putting aside any technical analysis, the DPs I encounter in my various travels routinely and profoundly disappoint me. Crap tone, crap speakers, crap keys, crap UIs, etc. I saw / heard the AG for the first time a year ago in the flesh and it struck me as pretty weak tea when compared to the real thing - the reps on hand were talking it up like it was superior to an AP, which made the experience even more surreal. I guess I'm less disappointed by the low end, where expectations are low-to-nonexistent to begin with, but it's more of a "hey, look what they can do with a pile of plastic and $20 worth of electronics" kind of thing. All DPs are seriously overpriced for what they are. And there is no technical or financial reason they can't be significantly better by this point. And their abilities are generally overhyped - their ad copy writes checks their products can't cash.

#2025948 - 02/02/13 03:19 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: kippesc]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,946
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dave Ferris  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,946
Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted by kippesc
Originally Posted by dewster
Like most DPs, the SN sound seems to suffer badly when rendered via speakers instead of headphones. I'm starting to think the ideal DP speaker might be the open baffle type (as ChrisA advocated a while back).

Interesting thought.

The first day I owned the RD-700NX, I plugged it into my home stereo (decent Boston Acoustic speakers) and it sounded pretty lame; I've always thought that was my stereo, though. Also, when playing back recorded performances of the RD on the stereo, it does not seem to sound as good as Ivory or the Vintage D.

I only use headphones when playing the Roland, and with headphones, it sounds very good.


The 700NX sounded excellent through my RCF TT08As...and that was before I bought the JM-110 pre/di. It would probably sound even better now. But yes generally speaking, I think it fares best on a solo recording or over phones.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
Yamaha CP4, CP5
#2025951 - 02/02/13 03:35 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: Dave Ferris]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 432
kippesc Offline
Full Member
kippesc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 432
United States
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
The 700NX sounded excellent through my RCF TT08As...and that before I bought the JM-110 pre/di. It would probably sound even better now. But yes generally speaking, I think it fares best on a solo recording or over phones.

I think those are PAs? What would you use if you were setting a board up in your house? I'm not convinced that studio monitors are the way to go. But many on this forum use them.


Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2025954 - 02/02/13 03:58 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: kippesc]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,946
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dave Ferris  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,946
Glendale, Ca.
I actually use the RCFs. The TT line of RCF are pretty high definition...not your usual QSC,EV, JBL, Mackie MI fare. I have a pair of Dynaudio BM6As that I monitor my acoustic recordings of my Steinway. I've tried the Dyns on both the CP5 & Nord Piano. For just playing my DP through at home, I prefer these RCFs to my Dynaudio monitors.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 02/02/13 04:18 PM.

https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
Yamaha CP4, CP5
#2026019 - 02/02/13 07:34 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 36
AshwayGap Offline
Full Member
AshwayGap  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 36
Saddleworth UK
For goodness sake - he's an Internet troll. I can see right through this Muppet. Just ignore him and he'll go away.

#2026031 - 02/02/13 08:34 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,614
MacMacMac Offline
5000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,614
North Carolina
You're right, Ashway.
KataiYubi is a troll. He posted exactly ONCE in this thread.
Since then, all the fuss has come from other members.

So it's not him we should ignore. We ought to ignore this thread, eh?

#2026041 - 02/02/13 08:56 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Troll or not, it obviously hit a nerve.

#2026047 - 02/02/13 09:10 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: The Monkeys]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 282
adak Offline
Full Member
adak  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 282
Canada
Originally Posted by The Monkeys
Originally Posted by adak

Lets take the 3k pounds example, buying a 3k pounds upright and play it for 10 years, it would still be a keeper. However if you buy a top of the line 3k pound yamaha cp1 stage piano, no way you will keep it after 10 years the advances in technology would have made it obsolete long ago. Replacing the digital would mean paying more money, making more expensive than buying an acoustical piano in the first place.


AP: $3000
CP1:$3000

10 years later:
AP : tuning @ every 8 month for $120, cost 1.8K, can sell for 2K
CP1: no tuning cost, can sell for $300

Adjusted residual value:
AP: $300 (+/- $1000)
CP1:$300 (+/- $300)

The AP is still the same AP, with a bit of wear and tear.
The CP1 is still the same CP1, with a bit of marks and dents.

Monetary value of 10 years of investment: worthless
Enjoyment value of 10 years of music : priceless



I am confused. Are you supporting my point of view or his?


Casio Privia PX-150

#2026091 - 02/02/13 11:06 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: Dr Popper]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 26
Peter B Offline
Full Member
Peter B  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 26
USA
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
He might be a troll or somewhere a village might be missing a idiot.
But at least it's more entertaining than "Does a PX-150 have a plastic pedal".

For sure it's more entertaining. And the troll has a point - if we forget gigging, silent practicing, access to different piano tones, recording, price and all the junky acoustic pianos around.

#2026214 - 02/03/13 07:53 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 36
AshwayGap Offline
Full Member
AshwayGap  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 36
Saddleworth UK
Originally Posted by dewster
Troll or not, it obviously hit a nerve.


Of course, because that's what trolls do. It's the easiest thing in publishing just to pick a controversial subject or argument, tart it up with bit with bigotry or intolerance and then sit back and watch people fall for it.

#2026216 - 02/03/13 08:08 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 300
Clayman Offline
Full Member
Clayman  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 300
Prague, Czech Rep.
Originally Posted by dewster
Putting aside any technical analysis, the DPs I encounter in my various travels routinely and profoundly disappoint me. Crap tone, crap speakers, crap keys, crap UIs, etc. I saw / heard the AG for the first time a year ago in the flesh and it struck me as pretty weak tea when compared to the real thing - the reps on hand were talking it up like it was superior to an AP, which made the experience even more surreal. I guess I'm less disappointed by the low end, where expectations are low-to-nonexistent to begin with, but it's more of a "hey, look what they can do with a pile of plastic and $20 worth of electronics" kind of thing. All DPs are seriously overpriced for what they are. And there is no technical or financial reason they can't be significantly better by this point. And their abilities are generally overhyped - their ad copy writes checks their products can't cash.


Well, I think we all realize that acoustic pianos will not be beaten in realism department for the time being, simply because they are as real as it gets. Digitals are still sort of an approximation of their acoustic counterparts and I'd be the first to admit it.

With that said, however, I don't really believe that digitals are "junk" or "crap" as you say. I don't know, maybe you are used to the AP's so much that you can't settle for the "artifical" flavor of a digital anymore or you have had access to many acoustic grands and whenever you have sat at a digital piano, you mentally put it side-by-side to to all those AP's and see/feel the deficiencies of the former. That's probably fine by me, I guess. But the list of institutions buying Clavinova's that someone has posted in this thread says that the DP's can't be all bad. I assume that the decisions to buy these pianos were made by people who did know what they were doing and if the Clavinova's really were "crap", it would mean a lot of wasted money.

I can't really comment on the pricing with respect to the technologies used, though, since I lack that knowledge. I would agree that especially the high-end digitals are quite spendy (in my country, the top model of the Clavinova CLP series carries pretty much the same price tag as a new Petrof upright) but I don't really know if the technologies used in DP's sold nowadays are the best available or not. I've seen the Physis piano in the NAMM 2013 thread -- that one seemed to have some pretty nifty gimmicks in it but at this point in time I consider it maybe a little more than a proof-of-concept kind of thing.

Last edited by Clayman; 02/03/13 08:10 AM.

-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
#2026245 - 02/03/13 10:23 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 425
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member
kiedysktos.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 425
Europe, Poland
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Clayman
The OP may have some more or less valid points but I didn't really like the tone of the post. Stirrin' it up a tad, aren't we?

Putting aside any technical analysis, the DPs I encounter in my various travels routinely and profoundly disappoint me. Crap tone, crap speakers, crap keys, crap UIs, etc. I saw / heard the AG for the first time a year ago in the flesh and it struck me as pretty weak tea when compared to the real thing - the reps on hand were talking it up like it was superior to an AP, which made the experience even more surreal. I guess I'm less disappointed by the low end, where expectations are low-to-nonexistent to begin with, but it's more of a "hey, look what they can do with a pile of plastic and $20 worth of electronics" kind of thing. All DPs are seriously overpriced for what they are. And there is no technical or financial reason they can't be significantly better by this point. And their abilities are generally overhyped - their ad copy writes checks their products can't cash.


+1

Once new model is released, repeatedly old tiny sample set is used, many short cuts are done and again we are disappointed. Even Clavia, which is quite forward looking company: if it releases 400MB piano or 100MB rhodes it would be a miracle. But at the same time we have cellphones with multi-core processors and many GB of memory.


Roland FP-4
#2026260 - 02/03/13 10:55 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: Clayman]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Clayman
I don't know, maybe you are used to the AP's so much that you can't settle for the "artifical" flavor of a digital anymore or you have had access to many acoustic grands and whenever you have sat at a digital piano, you mentally put it side-by-side to to all those AP's and see/feel the deficiencies of the former. That's probably fine by me, I guess.

My wife teaches private piano here at home and also has a church gig, so I hear a real, decent, maintained, brightish grand piano a couple of hours a day. Played through speakers, I can't say I've ever encountered a situation where a DP fooled me into thinking it was an AP. Looping, stretching, too few layers, and lack of resonance invariably add up to a dull, lifeless sound. The cheap speakers don't help either.

Originally Posted by Clayman
But the list of institutions buying Clavinova's that someone has posted in this thread says that the DP's can't be all bad. I assume that the decisions to buy these pianos were made by people who did know what they were doing and if the Clavinova's really were "crap", it would mean a lot of wasted money.

DPs are bought by all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons, some rational, some irrational. If you need the things only a DP can give then you obviously need a DP and should probably buy one. That doesn't mean they are anywhere near as good as they could/should be at this point, or that they are reasonably priced.

#2026269 - 02/03/13 11:14 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: kiedysktos.]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
Even Clavia, which is quite forward looking company: if it releases 400MB piano or 100MB rhodes it would be a miracle.

Yes, even at 400MB they're leaving ~95% of that gorgeous piano on the cutting room floor.

Rather like the movie industry showing you a trailer on an iPhone and claiming it's a feature length film in an IMAX.

#2026330 - 02/03/13 01:42 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
zapper Offline
Full Member
zapper  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
Even Clavia, which is quite forward looking company: if it releases 400MB piano or 100MB rhodes it would be a miracle.

Yes, even at 400MB they're leaving ~95% of that gorgeous piano on the cutting room floor.

Rather like the movie industry showing you a trailer on an iPhone and claiming it's a feature length film in an IMAX.


the idea is the same as in light bulb conspiracy, it's a greedy business and there are no place for sentiments or drive for excellence.

#2026378 - 02/03/13 03:12 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member
gvfarns  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
US
Originally Posted by dewster
3. Key position that is continuously sensed, not inferred from two or three switches.


I don't particularly see why this would be necessary. Two switches to determine the velocity of the hammer at release and one to determine whether the dampers are engaged or not. There *might* be an issue with DP implementation in that the two switches are not as close together as we would like so instead of giving us the release velocity they give us an average velocity. If this is the case I suppose it's due to the tolerances on the switches that are currently being used. That being the case I would prefer a better type of switch, but I don't see any reason to think that it should be continuous. Do you?

#2026388 - 02/03/13 03:48 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: gvfarns]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 424
Temperament Offline
Full Member
Temperament  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 424
Hun,EU
While I could see the possibility of a theoretically more complete modelling by using continuos velocity measurement (or position which could be equivalent) of key movement, but how much would it be better than the n sensor approximation - I cannot say for now either. I think it could be sufficient even with n=3. some better n=2 solutions yielded already playable expressive keyboards.

#2026447 - 02/03/13 06:02 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: gvfarns]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by gvfarns
I don't particularly see why this would be necessary. Two switches to determine the velocity of the hammer at release and one to determine whether the dampers are engaged or not. There *might* be an issue with DP implementation in that the two switches are not as close together as we would like so instead of giving us the release velocity they give us an average velocity. If this is the case I suppose it's due to the tolerances on the switches that are currently being used. That being the case I would prefer a better type of switch, but I don't see any reason to think that it should be continuous. Do you?

Yes. So that the final velocity is real, and not a rough approximation. And so note-off damping is a changing position, rather than a velocity. It's trivially easy to apply non-constant pressure to a key while playing (almost certainly the norm) and it's also easy to apply note off damping on a real piano in very complex ways. Two and three sensor actions might seem pretty OK (I'm kind of shocked they work as well as they do) and many can obviously easily adapt to them, but a real continuous sensor would give you tons of extra control over what actually happens, when, and how.

In many ways it would be nice to move past the bandwidth limitations of MIDI, which is how we got all this velocity nonsense in the first place. I mean, it's OK to a first order, but if you're going after realism I think you need more detailed data that key position can give you. And this isn't pie-in-the-sky stuff, it's all easily doable with 10 year old (or likely older) technology.

#2026449 - 02/03/13 06:07 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,494
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
pv88  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,494
@dewster,

Have you thought of seriously sending your ideas (about the continuous sensor) to Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, etc., and see if they could make a prototype model?

Or, are you currently working on a keyboard that would implement it?

I would even consider buying one if there is someone that can do it.

As of now, there's nothing better than the V-Piano.

#2026465 - 02/03/13 06:26 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 574
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member
xorbe  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 574
Mt View, CA
@Dewster, Pv88 - if only I had the time and resources to develop a DP -- I would build one with a dual bios, with the second one customizable, and lay waste to every DP manuf on earth. Imagine a Linux rom with a 128GB ssd behind it (300MB/s), and a 4 core x86 around 2GHz and 25W TDP for processing power, 8GB ram (30GB/s). About $350 of electronics would destroy anything offered today ...

#2026504 - 02/03/13 07:45 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 26
Peter B Offline
Full Member
Peter B  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 26
USA
Even with a "100%" sound engine we still need a speaker set-up that can communicate the sound as a real grand piano does if we are aiming for acoustic piano realism.

#2026556 - 02/03/13 10:10 PM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 210
torhu Offline
Full Member
torhu  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 210
A DP is simpler than an AP, in some negative and some positive ways. Let me illustrate it in a way that should be intuitive to most by posting a picture of a "DP":

[Linked Image]


Roland RD-700NX // Galaxy Vintage D
#2026609 - 02/04/13 12:08 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,614
MacMacMac Offline
5000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,614
North Carolina
Torhu: Can your version accept full-length samples?
Does it have hammer action?
What about letoff?
MIDI in and out?
smile

#2026621 - 02/04/13 12:49 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,844
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,844
Sydney, Australia
Infinite Response are already using continuous key position sensing, however they are necessarily outputting standard (hi-res) MIDI.

Quoting from: http://www.infiniteresponse.com/expr.html

Quote

Better Experience
A sophisticated digital signal-processing algorithm (DSP) analyzes the slightest key movement thousands of times a second. It delivers MIDI messages based on acceleration vectors, not just key speed at the bottom. Its more about how you play the note than how you hit the note. For example, you can play trills without fully depressing the keys. Many of the best keyboard players in the world play the VAX77 and find it to be the most expressive keyboard instrument ever. Never before could you play a MIDI keyboard so softly. And no matter how strongly you attack the keys, it always feels like you can dig down and get a little more out of it.


Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/04/13 12:51 AM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#2026645 - 02/04/13 02:10 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: pv88]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 300
Clayman Offline
Full Member
Clayman  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 300
Prague, Czech Rep.
Originally Posted by pv88
@dewster,

Have you thought of seriously sending your ideas (about the continuous sensor) to Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, etc., and see if they could make a prototype model?

Or, are you currently working on a keyboard that would implement it?

I would even consider buying one if there is someone that can do it.

As of now, there's nothing better than the V-Piano.


I really don't think the engineers at Yamaha/Roland/Kawai etc. haven't thought about this already but for some reason they stick to whatever we have today. I'm not sure I share dewster's "conspiratory" point of view that manufacturers purposely sell products with sub-par technologies but it's an interesting question nonetheless.


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
#2026685 - 02/04/13 04:04 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,033
dire tonic Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dire tonic  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,033
uk south
Originally Posted by dewster
In many ways it would be nice to move past the bandwidth limitations of MIDI, which is how we got all this velocity nonsense in the first place.


- just a minor side-issue on bandwidth, I don't mean to divert the OP but do you (or does anyone) know how fast midi data is pushed through a USB port into a PC? I know both MIDI and USB are serial ports but the latter has a theoretical max rate of 480kb/s (v2) while MIDI is a little over 31kb/s. I was never convinced, when using a sequencer for real-time input, that otherwise tight chord timings were getting accurately reported by MIDI whereas I've a bit more faith in USB doing a better job. Does anyone have any insights?


#2026693 - 02/04/13 04:22 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 108
Nigeth Offline
Full Member
Nigeth  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 108
I'd rather we'd refrain from using marketing speech.

With digital systems there is no "infinite response" and no "continuous sensing" and I'd be pretty astonished if you'd really need a full blown DSP just to get a reading from a triple sensor setup.

I'd even argue that even if you'd measured the velocity distribution of the key presses from a couple of great pianists with sufficient accuracy you'd still get a distribution you could model with sufficient accuracy on a digital.

Even so, a digital sensor with just 8 bit of resolution still can discern 256 different levels of velocity, a setup with 16 bit resolution could even measure up to 65535 unique levels of velocity per sensor.

That's pretty much enough resolution to map out a pretty realistic velocity response curve and you wouldn't need a DSP for that (not at the low frequency even a fast pianist presses the keys which is < 20 Hz or < 20 keypresses per second)

You'd still only be able to use 127 levels over MIDI though, which probably would still be quite good if the sample sets in the pianos used all 127 layers and had enough samples for all of the velocity levels and notes.

So until a decent DP isn't even able to give you the full resolution of MIDI (127 levels of velocity) with a decent polyphony and samples which are long enough and numerous enough to play most chords without looping then it's pretty moot to talk about 'continuous response' or other marketing gibberish.

This by itself wouldn't even be much of a technical hurdle, take the innards of a Korg Krome (which is able to use the German Concert D sample set of the Kronos) and pair it with a great action and you'd probably blow most of what's available today out of the water in terms of fidelity with it's 3.8 GB of available memory and even the Krome only samples each key with 8 layers of velocity.

The Kronos X uses a 64 Gb solid state disc and 4 Gb of RAM, which would be more than enough to store one or two of the ivory 2 grand sample sets and use them.

#2026700 - 02/04/13 04:39 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: dire tonic]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 108
Nigeth Offline
Full Member
Nigeth  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by dire tonic

- just a minor side-issue on bandwidth, I don't mean to divert the OP but do you (or does anyone) know how fast midi data is pushed through a USB port into a PC? I know both MIDI and USB are serial ports but the latter has a theoretical max rate of 480kb/s (v2) while MIDI is a little over 31kb/s. I was never convinced, when using a sequencer for real-time input, that otherwise tight chord timings were getting accurately reported by MIDI whereas I've a bit more faith in USB doing a better job. Does anyone have any insights?


I'd be pretty surprised if MIDI over USB used anything other than the 31.25 Kbaud/s rate. With that rate you could send a MIDI event every 32 Mikroseconds.


#2026707 - 02/04/13 04:52 AM Re: Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture [Re: KataiYubi]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,844
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,844
Sydney, Australia
Nigeth: I agree, in a digital system, there is no such thing as completely "continuous", however the VAX77 does NOT use a triple-sensor action - each key has a hall-effect sensor, which produces an analog signal that varies in proportion to the key-press depth, and this signal is then digitised and processed by a DSP, as evidenced by the quote I supplied.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/04/13 04:53 AM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Upright agraffes...
by Adypiano. 12/14/17 04:54 AM
Kawai MP11/MP7 v1.15 software update - now available
by Kawai James. 12/14/17 01:29 AM
Recommendations on recording gear?
by Muhwu. 12/14/17 01:07 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,269
Posts2,679,182
Members89,267
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0