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I do know them! (Very well, thank you.)

I just didn't know that term.

Anyway....the issue is whether the reply we're talking about was put in a way that the OP would be likely to understand, or that most readers of the thread would. It wasn't put in a way that I could readily understand, and, rightly or wrongly, I take that as an indication that Lucy probably wouldn't, at least not easily, and many other readers probably wouldn't, and not just because of the term "natural minor." I didn't make a big thing of it; I just teased Ed a little, and I hope he didn't mind.

BTW, I'm not sure if you're thinking I lied about having taken theory or that the courses I had were lousy.

Mark_C

I'm Not questioning your background but I find it a little puzzling because I thought natural minor scale was a fairly common/universal term. I'm curious What did your teacher call it?

I think part of the problem, as you and others have stated is that the question itself a little strange.. I understand vii diminished being used as substitution for V but not bvii. Major bVII in minor key could mean tonicization/modulation to another key(Kreisler's answers)

on the other hand, if the OP is asking why there is vii, and bvii being used in a minor key, then LoPresti's answer probably what OP is looking for, as those two chords come from different modes of minor scales.

All these chappies
wanting to muddy the modal waters with clutter such as

Dorian/Hypodorian
Phyrygian/Hypophrygian
Lydian/Hypolydian
Mixolydian/Hypomixolydian
Aeolian/Hypoaeolian
Ionian/Hypoionian

When the only ones worth remembering ...
(survived 2500 years from the Greek Golden age) are
the Lydian (major scale) and Dorian (minor scale).

Who did I hear say “shut up” when I started prating
about some ghastly chappie called Glareanus
who published some rot in 1547 called Dodecachordon ...
some say he died of the Plague ...
all those plagal ending don’t you know.

Kind regards, btb

I'm sure it's puzzling.

I had two years of theory in college, two different teachers. The program was pretty rigorous. There were two levels of music theory courses; this was the upper level, the one taken by music majors. I never saw or heard the term "natural minor" during these courses, nor had I in my prior years of piano study, nor have I in the time since then, much of which I've spent discussing music with serious musicians.

What term was used for "natural minor"?
I had to finally look it up to see what it is.

We mostly called it nothing. It didn't get referred to very much, and when it did, we called it the Aeolian mode (which was one of about 6 or 7 modes we studied). When we called minor scales by name, it was just harmonic and melodic.


For sure. It was my main point in the first couple of posts. What I said about Ed's post was just a side comment.


So, you're saying he wasn't answering the question at all? I assumed he was sort of answering it but with a lot of additional stuff that wasn't needed and which made it less accessible -- but as per what I've said, I couldn't tell any of it clearly, neither the question nor his answer.

Mark, in the lower theory before college did they give? The natural minor is rather standard over here at the earlier level. It tends to be used to build up to the other two. Aeolian is to natural minor what Ionian is the major scales. We still say "major" and not "Ionian". I'd say it's a Canada-US thing except that I seem to remember that Ed hales from Chicago unless my memory is wrong.

That muddies the waters further. That is what the Greeks called them, but when they became church modes, the major was called Ionian, and the minor (natural) was called Aeolian. The Lydian, in church mode is what you get when you play the white keys on the piano from F to F, while Dorian is D to D.

Lots of jazz players and such use modes, but are probably scratching their heads at the hypos.

Hi BTB,

Your scale names are a little confused. The easy way to keep them straight is to remember that you can derive each by starting on a white note/key on the piano and playing nothing but sequential white keys up an octave. Depending on which note you begin on, you will be playing in:

Ionian C-C (major)
Dorian D-D
Phrygian E-E
Lydian F-F
Mixolydian G-G
Aeolian A-A (natural minor)
Locrian B-B

It is of course possibly to play any of these keys starting on any note, but if you remember this approach, you can always figure out the right collection of half vs. whole steps to the key you are interested in. I have a mnemonic device to remember the order of these modes too. It is:
"I Don't Play Lousy Music At L________", where for the final L you can pick some sort of venue or person's house who is memorable to you.

Hope that helps keep them straight,
Mark

P.S. Dorian and phrygian modes that you mentioned do sometimes appear in classical music - phrygian in particular has an Eastern European flair, as does dorian to some extent. And I understand that they all have more or less of a place in jazz music, but I've never studied jazz formally, so I can't speak on it...

P.P.S. From what keystring says, it sounds like the ancient Greek nomenclature might use the same names in a different order when referring to the modes. If that's the case, then the topic of modes has great potential to be a confusing topic of discussion, and I apologize if my post sounded patronizing.

The only other explanation I can think of is if you are minor key and modulating up minor 3rd (relative major), in that case both the vii dimnished(which also works as substitue for V) and V7/bIII (OP only said major, but not the quality of the 7th) can be used to pivot to the next key.

For example in key of C minor

B full diminished and it's inversion can be used to pivot to Eb (they share the same diminished chords
Bb(7) as V of Eb.

They are both somewhat interchangeable

Mar C

I edited the post for clarification. I think LoPresti's answer is pretty straight forward.. but whether or not it answers the question really depends on what the OP is actually asking.

MarkH

I think btb is just trolling.

Thanks MarkH for the explanation homing in on the Ionian mode for the Major scale ... of which I was aware ... them thar Greeks apparently settled on a fixed arrangement of the modal notes ... and depending on which mountainous group you twanged your lyre ...

Spartans TTtTTTt
Phygians tTTTtTT
Lydians TTTTtTt
M/lydian TTtTTTt
Aeolian TTtTtTT
Ionian TTtTTTt

Hope I got all the twangs right ... wonder if the Dorian Spartans imposed their modal notes on the Athenian Greeks when they hammered Pythagoras and Co.

Perhaps they needed to wait till the arrival of the mighty Macedonian king Alexander the Great in 323 BC.

btb,

Ancient Greek city-states, and Black Plagal cadences aside, I am not certain how any of this relates to Poor Miss Lucy’s questions. But now I have a few questions of my own, one of which I have already asked you:



Secondly, where would I look to verify that what you refer to as the GREEK Dorian mode (minor scale) --

-- follows your pattern TtTTTTt ?

Thanks,
Ed

Hi Mark,

I absolutely do not mind anyone questioning anything I write, AND I like to keep it fun. In fact, I think I included a little "disclaimer" at the bottom of my original answer to Miss Lucy, mentioning that she had not asked a question that could do with a trivial answer.

Ed

Since btb doesn't tend to be interested in answering things the way we want I'll do it for you. (Believe it or not, this is another thing that's easier to understand than your post, at least for me.)

Why it's easier: It doesn't require knowing any particular terminology, nor looking anything up.

The one thing it does take knowing is what's the "Dorian mode." I assume you do (and I'm pretty sure it's been stated on here) but for anyone who might not, it's the scale you get when you play all the white keys from D to D.

Knowing the modes, I didn't find it hard to see what btb's notation meant. I just looked at one of the modes and wondered how the heck that notation might mean what I knew it was, and it was readily clear (although, I thought, I bit odd). Once you recognize what the notation means, there's nothing needing to be verified. Here it is:

Capital letter means the note is followed by a whole step upward. Small letter means the note is followed by a half step upward.

But -- but -- Mark,

That pattern of btb's does NOT describe any Dorian mode of which I am aware (Greek or otherwise). In fact, that pattern of whole and half-steps does not match any one of the church modes. So while it might be easier to understand for you than my post, I believe it is simply WRONG. ( I am still waiting to hear back about if it descends in the exact reverse.)

Ed

It's not wrong. It's the exact usual Dorian mode. Perhaps to make it simple: Start at the note D and go upward according to the notation as I explained it, and see if it doesn't hit all the right notes.

(It does.)

I suspect you aren't exactly understanding the notation, despite the explanation of it. Maybe take another look at it, but I can't explain it any better than I did.

Or maybe you have a different idea of what's the "Dorian mode." Do you understand it as anything other than what was said?

Ok Mark,

I have tried to be patient and cordial. Now I AM becoming annoyed as you continue to harp on simplicity, and presume to teach me about rudiments and theory. Without calling your glowing credentials into question, you are way (WAY) out of your depth here.

Following the pattern: TtTTTTt
D – then up a whole step (T) to –
E – then up a half-step (t) to -
F - then up a whole step (T) to –
G - then up a whole step (T) to –
A - then up a whole step (T) to –
B - then up a whole step (T) to –
? C# ? - then up a half-step (t) to -
D


So now I invite you once again to show us all where I am wrong, and explain how a C# somehow found its way into your usual Dorian mode on D.

Or, maybe quit while you are behind . . .
Ed

LoPresti: You're right, and I owe you an apology. But you we me one too.

A couple of things got confused. He never said that the thing you're indicating was the "Dorian mode"; he said it was MINOR.

And it is. It's the ascending melodic minor. I'm not sure how you got into considering it his notation for the Dorian mode.

And in this post of his, he did indicate the Dorian mode in his notation (in that post he called it "Spartan" but indicated that it's the same as Dorian), and the notation there does match the Dorian mode exactly. That's what I was following when I did the above posts, and I just didn't notice that what you indicated was different.

We need some history to straighten this out.

The Ancient Greeks had a musical system, and the names Dorian, Phrygian etc. referred to various Greek states, as btb says. Their system does not correspond directly to what we know in modern times. For one thing, they had three "species spanning a P4 including one that had a quarter tone. However, if you take 4 notes spanning a P4, and another 4 notes spanning a P4, you will get an octave and some kind of scale.

The music evolved, and you ended up with the Dorian - Hypodorian etc. that btb talks about. It wasn't exactly the construct of modern music and it didn't function the same way, but you could trace the outline of the various modes as we know them today.

Then finally when we get to what we know in modern times as "modes", the names were made official, but they messed up. They were trying to use the same names that the Greeks did, but they didn't get it right. The older names would have made our modern major scale "Dorian", but for some reason they named it "Ionian". The scholars talk about this and basically they're saying, "Ok, we know what names existed for the older system, and we'll stay aware of both of them, but for modern things we'll say Ionian = major scale, Aeolian = natural minor etc."

The white keys reference where Ionian = C to C, Dorian = D to D, Phrygian = E to E, Lydian = F to F is a modern shortcut for remembering these names, and it works quite well. Of course any of these modes can start on any note, and it's the intervals in the scale that must stay commensurate.

Dorian mode is not related to any of the common minor scales we know today. Nor is the ascending melodic minor a match for any of the church modes. Nor is the harmonic, for that matter.

The harmonic minor and melodic minor have their roots in modern music theory, where we consider things like the functionality of leading tones. Medieval composers didn't concern themselves with that; they stuck to their church modes until counterpoint, even temperament and Rameau's writings started to make people think about the way notes tend to interact with one another. We shouldn't try to apply modern thinking to ancient concepts; leave our scale types as what they are and leave the old church modes alone.

Found it in a book that was passed on to me years ago and I have never managed to read because my eyes would glaze over.

HISTORY OF MODES in short form

First we have plainchant, the chants used in religious ceremonies that took boys their entire childhood to learn because it was all by rote memory. The chants were like patched together common melodic patterns or riffs and they didn't really think much about them. This went on for hundreds of years.

We get to the 10th century, where they tried to get some order to this by finding underlying patterns. Once you have a structure you can start playing with music.

"The formation of the modal system, then, was in part an effort to extract the fundamentla series of modes from the existing plainchant repertoiry. At the same time, however, tenth-century theorists tried to relate their modes to the complex Greek system as transmitted by Boethius and later Latin writers. This accounts for the Greek names of the eight modes, although nothing else about them is Greek; and even the names were misapplied. (In the Greek modal system, Dorian begins on E, Phrygian on D, Lydian on C, and Mixolydian on B.).... "(1)

It goes on to say that the constructs created in the 10th century had a huge effect on how music developed from then on. Meanwhile, the original chants from which it was "extracted" didn't always fit the structure that they derived from them. So they had to alter the chants themselves, sort of like the feet of Cinderella's ugly stepsisters trying to fit the glass slipper, except that in this case the slipper was faulty. (What else is new about theory).


(1) Hoppin, Medieval Music, p. 67