Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes)

Regarding whether the "musical" value of the Etudes does or doesn't include an appreciation of the 'technique' aspects (of both composer and performer):

It's hard for me to see that people think those things can or should be separated. Like....(warning, remote analogy coming) in the above video, is our appreciation of the music not influenced by our seeing and knowing that the performer is about 150 years old?

For me it certainly is, just as when I heard Horszowski play at 98 or 99, that was an extreme extra factor in the appreciation of the music. Likewise, when a child plays classical music very well but not necessarily extraordinarily, some people don't understand that there's much more interest in it than when any number of adult professional pianists play much better. Epiphenomena are part of the phenomenon.
At least for many people, and I'd guess for most.
And with the etudes, I think this would apply even to most people who don't know anything about playing the piano or who aren't particularly into classical music. I think they still usually have some appreciation for what's going on, and that their sense of the music per se includes a contribution from that.

Maybe I'm even more a purist than you, then!

Because I think I could take someone who doesn't know music, say to them "here's some Chopin", play an etude... and (if I play it right) have the same kind of overall musical/emotional connection as if I had played a nocturne or a mazurka. The epiphenomenon of its being an etude is, for me, far from the essence of the thing.

Following your pattern of vaguely related musical metaphors , the fact that these pieces are "etudes" is a little like the fact that Beethoven wrote his late sonatas when deaf. An important fact, and something everyone "should" know, but in the end a bit of a formal curiosity compared to the intensity and wonder of the music itself.

-J

I don't see that you're disagreeing with what I said, maybe just seeing differently what's going on in the person's head. I meant that the person has "the same kind of overall musical/emotional connection"!


Yes -- but there's a big difference. The things I was talking about are tangible parts of the performance, not involving any external factor or requiring any external knowledge. (About the age thing, I was assuming we can see the performer, as in the Rubinstein video.)

Oh, I need to ''cheat'' like that all the time because I have short finger, and I think it is okay to ''cheat'', think about when you closed your eyes, you won't know a person using which finger to touch your back, they feel all the same, right?

Exactly! I'm glad I'm not the only cheater here--or at least not the only one who will admit to it. (Maybe we can pitch a new reality show: "Cheaters: Piano")

I have some dim memory of reading that Chopin himself shared the opinion that his etudes, or at least some of them, weren't as musically valuable as his other compositions. Maybe someone knows the exact reference - I could be misremembering it.

Well, since confession is good for the soul, I admit: Years ago when I was in college, I left those two right hand octaves out of the 10-2 A minor etude. You know, the F octave with the Ab in the middle in the Db chord, and the G octave two bars later in the Eb chord. Nobody noticed (I think they were distracted by the fact that my performance generally sucked), but I've still been wracked with guilt for many years.

Oh, and while I'm at it: That story about being injured by an IED while playing La Campanella in Iraq was made up as well. The truth is, I can't even play La Campanella.

I feel much better now.

K.

I think a big difference between the Chopin Etudes and the ones by Liszt or Rachmaninov is that the Chopin Etudes are mostly much shorter.

Thus one cannot really expect them to be as musically developed as a longer work. But, for me, that doesn't make the huge majority of them less significant than the etudes of Rachmaninov or Liszt anymore than one would say the mostly very short Chopin Prelude(quite a few of which could pass as etudes) are minor works.

Well I took note of the 'IMO', but I totally disagree. Your use of the word 'worship' is utterly insulting, I have no problem rating the etudes amongst the finest of Chopin's works.

Sorry mate, did you ever study music at uni?

I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.

You know, I was going to give a counterexample, but I realized my counterexample runs 3 minutes -_-
(Rachmaninoff Moment Musical no.4 (op.16))

I guess on top of that, Rachmaninoff/Liszt etudes are much less focused.

Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

Probably only because of their titles... it might create some sort of prejudice. Now, obviously the op. 10 etudes are fairly early works by the young Chopin and are obviously lacking the mature complexity of his later compositions, but they're still marvelous gems -- rivaling his other compositions of the same time period. The op. 25, however, is an absolutely extraordinary collection of music and I don't see how anyone could question these colorful pieces' musicality. If they weren't entitled 'etudes' I'd bet people with such criticisms would think differently.

I couldn't disagree more!
It should have been "especially Op. 10."

Thanks.

If I'm allowed to bring argumentum ad verecundiam into this, may I add that I believe most teachers (people with doctorates from prestigious conservatories) would agree with the "Chopin etudes do not stand very well as just music" camp.

Might I add that I agree that some of the etudes are good music that I enjoy listening to, but I like them for a similar reason to why I like some of Alkan's even more simplistic etudes; They are charming, but they don't move me the way the 4th Ballade does. If I didn't like how they sounded, I wouldn't have worked on op.10 no.4 for 1 year, or op.25 no.6 for 5 hours a day for a full month, but I don't really want to go to a concert and listen to someone play them either (hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).

You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time?
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.)

I guess I just see op. 25 as being so much more colorful.

IMO it's impossible to talk about musical worth objectively, there's always the element of personal taste involved. So I cannot be offended or even surprised that some of you think the etudes don't have much musical worth.

Anyway, I listen to the etudes in two ways: The whole cycle, which almost kind of melts into one larger work, a display of varied musical ideas and techniques. Then I may listen to individual ones. Not all of them are very interesting to me individually, so I would agree that their individual musical worth varies a lot. Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much, but I never seem to get tired of hearing a good rendition of 10-2, maybe not so much because of deep musical worth, but the genious addictiveness of it

I think my enjoyment is actually increased because they are short. I often prefer shorter works of music. Maybe partly because I am very easily bored. I't so much better having to wish something lasted longer than wishing it ended already

I am not a fan of either Liszt or Rach, but I enjoy some of their compositions. I don't like everything written by old Fred either. I judge every piece of music individually, but some styles and forms appeal to me more than others.