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Joined: Aug 2010
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@andy0140,
You are right about the decay not being sufficient with the AP-650 as it appears to behave very similarly to the AP-620 which also has very short decay.
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Guys sorry for the delay. This clip was done on a PX-350 using the default Concert Grand preset. The AP-650 to be honest would sound a little different due to it's sympathetic resonance and key release features, but I'm traveling so much and haven't been near an AP-650. Schubert Improptu Op90 No3
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Mike - appreciate the response & upload. You can indeed play the piece quite well - No doubt. Did you really enjoy playing that piece on the Casio ??? Because the sound is so very synthetic and displeasing to the ear as my original post clearly stated - that decay is unsuitable for these sort of pieces of music. I've recorded my own copy of this here : Schubert Impromptu in G Flat Major Op90 No 3 - Andy Salter Admittedly there are a few minor mistakes in my recording as this was done live but I hope that my rendition clearly demonstrates the vast differences in sound & decay/sustain. Andy
Last edited by andy0140; 01/08/13 07:28 PM.
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Some people are never satisfied...
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Some people are never satisfied... I preferred the Casio  Since the first was on a PX350, and I assume the second on RP301 (?) we're not hearing a comparison of similarly priced, or market segment products. There are as usual a number of unknown factors too such as instrument settings, recording, player ability, etc. Nicely played, I thought, by both.
Last edited by spanishbuddha; 01/08/13 08:04 PM.
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Some people are never satisfied... +1! K.
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@andy0140, It sounds like you did a very nice job with recording the Schubert Impromptu as this is a difficult piece in which to bring out the melodic line, and, I applaud your effort on it. Decided to record a short excerpt myself, however, the reason I was not able to play the entire piece is that I have been having an issue with some muscles in my back (tightening up when playing), so I have to limit how much I exert myself, both at the keyboard and computer while typing. Now wearing a wrist brace for support on my right hand due to strain, there. Have just ordered a new computer/office chair which I should have by the end of the week to try and alleviate these problems while typing and at the piano. Schubert Impromptu - Op. 90, No. 3 - excerpt: [17 seconds of silence before playing starts] https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithmExtra note: Replaced the CA95 recording with another at the Kawai EP3 as I thought this digital has the best decay for the piece.
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@andy0140, would you please let me know how you enjoy the keyboard and external speakers of RP-301?
I had been waiting for the PX-358 (PX-350 Chinese Special) for a few months but start to consider investing twice for an RP-301/F120.
Last edited by Vampire Killer; 01/09/13 10:26 AM.
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2 Awards from me:
1. for Excellent playing
2. best instrument's sound of the topic (Your CA95?) - Most balanced and natural.
Andy's playing was nice as well, I thought it was the Roland VPiano Grand. Sound of which not that pleasing.
Mike's instrument made his job more tough - but in another price league.
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PV88: Do you know NadaChair?.I have it and found almost ideal for piano playing (for rehearsal; I have very serious herniated disk in the neck.) It is a must to try if You don't know it. Unlike a chair with back support it allows an active sitting while providing support. On a fix chair you are not leaning back! The only inconvenience is with pedalling, which was critical for You especially with Your CA95 (Pedal depth). I developed a special unorthodox pedalling techniques: 1. pulling foot out of my slippers but rest my heel on it 2. on my old CA51 (now sold) I did pedalling with the heel, while resting the front part of the foot on the pedal bridge (which the CA95 doesn't have unfortunately.)
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs
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My recording was done on a Roland RP301R with maximum reverb and -5 on brilliance. This piano retails around the £1250 price mark.
The Casio AP-650 (which has an identical decay tone to the PX-350) retails at £1099.
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Nice playing, I would say even professional.
Playability and sound control of the 301R seemes to be good - just were much synthetic details in the sound - I thought for that that it must have been a modelled instrument.
I could try the AP450 in a big shop in Vienna (Austria), and the sound was very similar to this one on the PX-350. Keyboard action was better as sound quality. Playability (with built-in sound module) suffered slightly for some hard to control high velocity notes - perhaps you can accustom to it and not a problem at all, or might be easily to control by adjusting the velocity curve. (Maybe not a matter with SW instruments either.)
Some experiences with Casio xxx50 keyboard and VSTi-s? They all have the same action!
Last edited by Temperament; 01/09/13 01:04 PM. Reason: beginning was cut off
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Man I cannot believe the differences between the Kawai / Roland / Casio samples above. The latter doesn't sound so bad until put up against the two formers.
Last edited by xorbe; 01/26/13 04:32 AM.
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Anyone find it funny that we have poster A saying piano x sounds "very synthetic and displeasing to the ear" and then posts example from piano y to "clearly demonstrate the vast differences in sound and decay" followed by poster B saying that piano y has sound that was "not that pleasing" and "much synthetic details in the sound"?
I sure do. They all have a long way to go.
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@Temperament,
Thanks for the info you have given above, and, it just occurred to me that part of the problem (with the back muscle tension) at the CA95 is due to pedaling as the pedals are indeed too close/forward to the player, for the most part. Might try elevating the heel of my foot to make pedaling a little easier. Having proper posture while sitting and making sure the entire body is balanced (and in correct alignment) may help to alleviate these issues.
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I was poster B.
Some explanations to be more specific: x: Casio xxx50, y:Roland SN sound.
I found "y" was simply that much better that it was a pitty the percieved synthetical details deterioreted the otherwise convincing sound experiment. I concluded it must be some modelled source, which is partially true due to the fact, that SN (SuperNatural sound of Roland) is a mix of sampling/modelling. (To simplify it: sampled attack and instead of the looped sample fragments modelled tails.)
The xxx50 sound I found generally much more artificial (not as in parts of the music and not in details). But to be honest not bad for the category they are positioned - and their keyboard action is honestly a real merit of them.
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Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)
Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.
At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)
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Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)
Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.
At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)
I would reiterate what has been expounded at length within this forum, regularly. Please ... do not purchase anything without playing it first. Especially a piano which may have some issues which have been suggested through this forum.
Don
Kawai MP7SE, On Stage KS7350 keyboard stand, KRK Classic 5 powered monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
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Unfortunately I don’t have the option of playing a digital piano first. There is a local Yamaha dealer which would be great if I were going to buy a Clavinova. Outside of that, it’s 200 miles to the nearest piano dealer. If you use the IRS travel allowance of $0.565 per mile ( http://www.irs.gov/uac/2013-Standard-Mileage-Rates-Up-1-Cent-per-Mile-for-Business,-Medical-and-Moving ), it would cost me 400 x $0.565 = $226.00 (round trip miles) just to visit a dealer. And Casio and Kawai dealers are 200 miles away in different directions. The only guidelines that I have are what I can find on the Internet. The primary issue with earlier Priva’s and Celviano’s was the decay time. PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing in regard to that problem. If anyone has a contact with a Kawai dealer who will give me a good price on a Kawai CN34, please get in touch with me. (I’m still open to a Kawai option.) Note, I’m primarily interested in classical music, and used to play at a fairly advanced level. (Some 35 years ago.)
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Apparently, that demo mean't more to you than the experience of the person who started this thread. Maybe you got in late to this thread and didn't read the earlier comments. You may wish to do so. Here is the opening comment to this thread ...
Received last weekend.
Packaged up today. Returning to the store. After all the good reviews of the AP620 I took a punt and went for the 650 without trying it out first. Yes, a gamble in itself. I'm upgrading from a Yamaha YDP-141.
Understatement to say that I'm extremely disappointed with the 650. Had high hopes. Main issue is the tonal decay (specifically in regards to the piano sound) in the middle range of the keyboard. It's just too fast and unrealistic. Delicate classical pieces (I'm an intermediate pianist) just do not cut it (example Schubert impromptu in g flat) and it annoys me how Casio can market a piano with so much focus on the keyboard effect without noticing that the grand piano tone isnt realistic. The accompaniments are also distinctly average.
I'm expecting delivery of a Roland RP-301R as already played this when I was looking around....and cannot wait to read people's experiences of the Casio AP650. I appear to be one of the first to air my views.
Rant over, hopefully a word of warning to other potential 650 buyers, and perhaps to introduce myself....I'm from the UK.
The reason I am so adament about this is because I did the exact same thing, albeit with the AP620. I wish you good luck.
Last edited by dmd; 01/11/13 05:03 PM.
Don
Kawai MP7SE, On Stage KS7350 keyboard stand, KRK Classic 5 powered monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
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