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Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string
But Max try do again
I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,
He is translating the English into Russian. Translate crap into Russian and then take that word and put it back into English. That's a bad word.
BTW, until now, I thought Max actually could write in English. Very resourceful of you Max. (I am right aren't I? I mean, you are using a text translation program, right? I apologize if I am wrong.)
Max no leisure to delve into the vagaries of translation. He had no time to do that and it's don't offends him. He is firmly in the comes for the truth, even if it does not exist
Why did you think this needed to be addressed by you? It didn't... It was done and over with.
We are not speaking Russian in here for pete's sake. I would not dream of going to a Japanese speaking website not knowing their language very well and then proceed to tell them to stop saying what I might think were "naughty words" in my OWN language which has nothing to do with their language if I couldn't hardly even speak Japanese like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it. That would be offensive to them in their own language.
We are speaking in American English as this is, an American English speaking website. Therefore, the word crap in American English is NOT a bad word. Geez.
If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.com
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.
None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.
Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice Regards,Max
like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it. If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.
Jerry Groot, I agree it is not necessary do pedaling our attention on this "word". But Max is very poorly understood meaning in English. He absolutely does not speak a word of English. However, a help advices of forum members is a reality. It really helps him in his work. Many musicians county town of Uralsk positive dynamics of growth in the tuning of Max now. This positive result of the existence of this forum
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.
None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.
Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice Regards,Max
Max. There are many things that need attention. The first 2-3 things I will address are issues of pure logic.
I notice you are back to the lever so let's do lever.
If you hold the lever at 9 or10 o'clock, the flagpoling occurs in line with the string. This means that if you merely pull the note up to pitch and call it good, you have left some flagpoling in the pin and, because it is in line with the string, the pitch will go all the way back as the pin spring back.
In order to leave the pin stable, you will have to pull it a lot above pitch and then let the pitch down until it is in tune. Doing this will create instability because of the friction around the pressure bar. An experienced tuner could both see and hear this happening in the string you were attempting to tune in your last video.
Now. Think about it. If you held the lever in line with the string, the flagpoling would be at 90 degrees to the string and will have far less effect on the pitch of the string so that when the pin sPring back from being pulled out of line, it will not be in line with the pull of the string and have very little, if any effect on its pitch.
This will make all your tuning much easier and you will not have to move the pin nearly as much. It's only logic. By holing the lever in line with the string you are taking flagpoling out of the equation. Or, to put it another way, You are neutralising the effect of flagpoling on the pitch.
The second point is that you are attempting to tune a 3rd string to two other strings that are out of tune with themselves. Again, logic that takes no specialised knowledge of pianos tells you that a good unison will never happen. Before you can tune the third string, you have to be absolutely certain that the first two strings are in tune with each other and that they stay in tune with each other while you tune the third string.
These two basic points are interdependent.
It is all very basic logic. I hope my attempt at explaining this will help.
When I see you doing these two things, I will be able to help you further.
You have specifically asked my help. I need to see, in your next video, the lever being held in line with the string and you tuning all three strings of a unison in the middle of the piano. No talking, no playing, I haven't time nor interest to wade through that. Only then can I take you through the next step.
Last edited by rxd; 01/28/1301:51 AM.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.
None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.
Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice Regards,Max
Only then can I take you through the next step.
Thank rxd for your support, I shall definitely do shoot the next video. Just not possible to do so in the near future. I have a lot of training going into your advice to do it right. I do not have cameras. I shall read your message, to understand the meaning of your explanation. Let me repeat the question in the last video is a positive change? Regards, Max
There are some things I purposefully do not address.
You are stuck in one place. This is because you are clinging to your homespun philosophies, each of which misses out a few vital parameters that make what you say make no sense. You are not alone in this aspect on this forum.
There are hundreds of years of cumulative experience genuinely trying to help you on this forum. There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.
I tell you how to use the tool you have chosen in one video then the next video shows you using another tool. I'm trying to work 'with' you here, letting you have your own direction and nudging you back on to the path when you stray. There are many paths but some of them have more obstacles than others.
Left to your own devices, you, like most novices, will, with elegant inevitably, revert to doing it the hard way.
I have given you what i consider to be the next appropriate step. With the pins on your piano being not too tight, you shouldn't have much trouble.
Practice practIce practice. Then you should have a few questions for us as you discover what we are trying to tell you to be true.
I am watching to see what you do in your next video
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Practice practIce practice. Then you should have a few questions for us as you discover what we are trying to tell you to be true. I am watching to see what you do in your next video
There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.
Let others laugh and covered with greenery from fury. Max's basic objective is understand "what is temperament?"
At the rate we are progressing, that will become apparent by the 15th lesson.
In the meantime, there are many threads on this forum that explain, at least theoretically what temperament is.
Very basically it is the way an octave is divided up into its constituent intervals.
We all thought that your basic objective was to learn to tune pianos???
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Max, don't worry about temperament now. It's good news that you have only two things to focus on now: you need to use the temperament strip and mutes so that you can get good unisons (set the middle string in tune, then tune a second string to that, with the 3rd string muted, then finally, tune the 3rd string to the pair that is tuned.), and you need to put the lever on the pin at the correct angle as RXD said, to reduce flag-poling and increase stability of your tuning. Don't worry about anything else right now, that's for later. I think people will be happy to help you with other questions if you do these two things first. Best wishes.
Last edited by ando; 01/28/1309:30 AM. Reason: Made it clearer.
This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important. Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.
Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.
Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.
I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important. Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.
Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.
Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.
I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.
Point taken. I have edited my post to remove any possible confusion. I was surprised to hear that you are concerned about how our words are translated though, because your posts frequently use unusual words which translators would have considerable problems with. Usually when you are showing frustration!
Am I a tuner? Well, I'm not a professional tuner, but I tune half a dozen pianos regularly, including my own. I use the standard methods you pros describe and I am very exacting with my standards. My unisons are very good and very stable. I won't pretend to be a master of temperaments however. I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way, which I feel some of you techs struggle with at times - especially when they are understandably frustrated by the poor communication and advice not being heeded.
This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important. Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.
Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.
Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.
I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.
I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way,
turns out to be when run through an auto-translator?
