Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
111 registered members (accordeur, Albunea, AlanB, anamnesis, alfredo capurso, 25 invisible), 1,905 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2022011 - 01/27/13 07:39 AM 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Lucy_Knell Offline
Full Member
Lucy_Knell  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Why is it that a progression 6\4 to 5\3 needs special
attention such that the 5\3 can not simply be left blank
as normal {and is sometimes figured as just 5}.
Thanks

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2022015 - 01/27/13 07:57 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Dave Horne Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Dave Horne  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Vught, The Netherlands
Well, when I studied theory (and also used figured bass) we would write 6\4 5\3 but place a bracket under that progression identifying that movement it as representing V.

It gets special attention (in a cadence setting) since a second inversion chord is not representative of its 'parent' triad, so to speak. There are other ways to state this but I'm guessing they won't be all that different. We all studied different theorists and everyone thinks their way of looking at something is the best way. smile



website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2022025 - 01/27/13 08:30 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Lucy_Knell Offline
Full Member
Lucy_Knell  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Thanks Dave.

I don't understand when you say ".......
..identifying that movement it as representing V."
Typo?

In your learning, why was the 6\4 not really
representative of its 5\3 parent ?

Thanks

#2022058 - 01/27/13 10:10 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Dave Horne Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Dave Horne  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Lucy_Knell
Thanks Dave.

I don't understand when you say ".......
..identifying that movement it as representing V."
Typo?

In your learning, why was the 6\4 not really
representative of its 5\3 parent ?

Thanks


If you substitute progression or harmonic progression for movement, would that be clearer for you?

At a cadence (in traditional theory) I was taught that a 6\4 harmony was not really representative of its parent triad and the two chords were grouped together to represent V. There are different ways of looking at this and you do what you have to do to pass a theory test. smile




website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2022073 - 01/27/13 10:40 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,532
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,532
Canada
The problem with how harmony theory is commonly taught, is that there is no link to actual music and sound. The rules reflect music in the same way that grammar reflects speech. We get a feel for nouns and verbs first by speaking, and then we get the grammar - but in the way music theory is taught, it's the opposite. I first tried to break away from this after passing my last level of rudiments, by going over the whole book again and exploring it all on the piano and more.

6/4 is second inversion, and the first place we learn it is in I64 V (or V7) I - say in C major - C/G to G(7) to C (final cadence). When in C major you have G in the bass, your ear hears that "G-ness" strongly as part of the bass line. It suggests C and G simultaneously, but since the harmony is C, you still hear it as C - but there is a small ambiguity. Meanwhile as your ear follows the bass line, (notes) G G C. The I64 acts like a kind of bridge, stressing that we're going to the Dominant, and already having that "G-feeling" but still the I chord, then becomes the real Dominant, and then we have a sudden plunge down a P4 from G to C or a swoop up a P5 from G to C.

One of my theory books - Horwood - presented something like 8 ways of using a 64 chord, cautioning to be careful not to just use it anywhere - it seemed insane. And then I wrote an exercise where I did just put the 64 somewhere for no reason and a friend looking at it said that it sounded odd because it was ambiguous. Meanwhile over in the beginner theory thread I wrote a minor version of Happy Birthday, and it first contained G#dim to Am/E which broke two theory rules ---- invert the viio, and have a good reason to use 2nd inversion. viio-Im suggests a weak cadence, but the 64 (Am/E) suggests that the Am is about to move to E... and then it doesn't. And if it is about to move somewhere, what is it doing at the end of a cadence, which suggests completion?

#2022075 - 01/27/13 10:41 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Dave Horne Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Dave Horne  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,015
Vught, The Netherlands
... One more thing, what's great about figure bass, you don't have to concern yourself with analysis per se, it's just the intervals above the bass.

Grouping the (cadential) 6\4 ... 5\3 under the umbrella of V is just simple functional analysis ... and others will view this differently I'm sure. smile



website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2022076 - 01/27/13 10:43 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Dave Horne]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,532
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,532
Canada
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

At a cadence (in traditional theory) I was taught that a 6\4 harmony was not really representative of its parent triad and the two chords were grouped together to represent V. There are different ways of looking at this and you do what you have to do to pass a theory test. smile

This must be the insane thing in one of my theory books where in the key of C major, C/G to G7 to C was shown as V64 to V7 to I, when C/G clearly is NOT a 2nd inversion G chord. They drew a line under like this V64 V (not a hyperlink grin) to show it as one unit. I understood the logic, which is that you "hear it" as being "part of the Dominant thingy", but essentially it seemed misnamed and confusing. I'd write it that way for an exam, but write it as I64 for myself the rest of the time.

#2022096 - 01/27/13 11:20 AM Re: 6 \ 4 to 5 \ 3 progression [Re: Lucy_Knell]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
It's notated that way to show the voice leading. The notes represented by the 6/4 lead directly to the 5/3.

It's just a pedagogical tool theory teachers use to make sure students understand how the 6/4 harmony is handled.

Originally Posted by Lucy_Knell
Why is it that a progression 6\4 to 5\3 needs special
attention such that the 5\3 can not simply be left blank
as normal {and is sometimes figured as just 5}.
Thanks


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Quick Tuning Question
by Zappy. 06/24/17 05:21 PM
Which piece should I learn
by Unknownuser123. 06/24/17 05:02 PM
iPad Pro 13" + Henle Library = great combo
by jokke. 06/24/17 03:51 PM
sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11
by drpharmer. 06/24/17 03:30 PM
Sojin Piano Advice
by nicr. 06/24/17 03:16 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,432
Posts2,638,718
Members88,176
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0