Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
116 registered members (AlanB, Adam S., anotherscott, BachToTheFuture, barefoot, 30 invisible), 1,843 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 18 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 17 18
#2016519 - 01/18/13 05:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Those aliquot strings are tuned similarly as the "ballast" string in a common unison, just by changing the shape of the envelope of the tone (I mean no need to pluck the aliquot string unless it is grossly out of tune)

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2016568 - 01/18/13 09:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 551
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member
Phil D  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 551
London, England
I'm loving the mental picture of an embarrassed unison! laugh

#2016603 - 01/18/13 10:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
Some of the old style aliquots were an embarrassment when they got old. It seemed to me that the brass post got loose in the bridge and didn't transfer the vibrations. They just went thunk when plucked and had no sustain. The new ones are audible and sustain as well as the struck strings and are not such an embarrassment to the unison. I, too, like that poetic way of saying it.

Last edited by rxd; 01/18/13 10:45 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2016610 - 01/18/13 10:54 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Phil D]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 440
erichlof Offline
Full Member
erichlof  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 440
blush

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2016842 - 01/18/13 07:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick




Last edited by pppat; 01/18/13 07:15 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#2017072 - 01/19/13 04:58 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by pppat

I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off.
Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?
Thank you for your message. Fortunately I understand things about "wrong-sounding in choirs." You have done a great job of creating these audio files. I will post them on my website. I hope this will be helpful in understanding the piano unison Russian-speaking beginners tuner.
Sincerely,

#2017163 - 01/19/13 11:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Translation from Finnish, the language Max adressed me in when he wrote his last post:

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick, greetings from Kazakhstan. I am very grateful for your free advice. I'd like to ask how you liked the piano music in the concert?


'Hi Max smile I liked the music and the playing, but honestly speaking the piano was in a shape that no doubt made it hard to make good music on it. This set aside, the concert was admittedly an experience to the audience, and that might be most important of all.'

Last edited by pppat; 01/19/13 11:14 AM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#2017193 - 01/19/13 12:09 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by pppat
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Patrick,ymmärsin sinut. Temperamentti tulevaisuudessa yritän tehdä sen hyvin hyvä

Last edited by Maximillyan; 01/19/13 12:10 PM.
#2017195 - 01/19/13 12:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by BDB
I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.

BDB,I have nothing against you personally. If I am offended you, I apologize

#2017198 - 01/19/13 12:23 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Emmery
I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot

Routine Max's days

#2017203 - 01/19/13 12:30 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: accordeur]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by accordeur

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

My films are address for simply laymen who are trying to repair their own piano

#2017208 - 01/19/13 12:34 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!

Max ridiculed and persecuted many really alive!

#2017212 - 01/19/13 12:41 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by rxd

""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?
""

the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. [/quote]
Thank rxd,that's what I wanted to know

Last edited by Maximillyan; 01/19/13 12:42 PM.
#2017377 - 01/19/13 04:59 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada

Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2017405 - 01/19/13 05:53 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Max,

regarding unison tuning, I think every tuner - including very good ones - has been in a concert where his/her unisons started to drift. It is a truly gruesome thing... I can't talk about it any more for now, because I will lose a good night's sleep if I continue smile

I just sat at the computer listening to Brad Mehldau's playing at the Village Vanguard, NY, 2006. A bit into the gig, the tuning is loosening up.

Here's the fourth-to-last track called "Secret Beach".
Brad Mehldau: Secret Beach

The tune is in A minor. Listen to B4. That note is much more than 2 cents off. Brad notices that, too, and because jazz piano players have the advantage of choosing what to play after the theme is introduced, he avoids letting B4 ring. I can understand him, it's really kind of awful-sounding.

Just to provide some comfort in your quest for good-sounding unisons smile


Last edited by pppat; 01/19/13 06:27 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#2017585 - 01/20/13 12:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble

I find it photo such as a piano in our school. However, our was made ​​in Leipzig (DDR)

#2017591 - 01/20/13 12:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch

#2017630 - 01/20/13 02:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


It's subtler than that, Max. Slightly sharp on the aliquots was taught to me by the Blüthner technicians when I joined the company in the 1960's but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here. I suppose it's better to say "if anything, sharp, but never on the flat side". This is a matter of judgement, it would be foolish if I were to try to lock it down to a cents value. As another old tuner said; "put the little******* where they 'sound' ". I will not write exactly what he called them because it will certainly get lost in translation and you will, no doubt, chastise me.

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.

Of course, it is not outside the bounds of probability that you tuned perfect unisons that sprang apart at the first energetic playing so pin setting goes together with still unisons

While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).




Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2017662 - 01/20/13 04:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by rxd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here.
I fully understand that you have to express "any aggravation but it was well within 2 cents mentioned here." For me it is difficult practical terms. I hope that my ears will help .

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.
We are looking at the moment that you remove every last trace accordion sound." Do not have the moral right to leave "accordion lapses in the choir" I'll fix.


While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).


What concerns the use of the "theory of the corners setting lever" I fully agree with you. Need hold the handle of T-bar is not parallel to the strings. While the power right hand the handle weaker than the left. If we use the L-shaped classic tuning hammer "to reduce the forces on Pinblock" that I think should lead to (9-12). A handle only the left and move UP!.

#2017670 - 01/20/13 06:01 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#2017699 - 01/20/13 08:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
Sicily - Italy

Accordion? I would say either hammered dulcimer or cimbalom, and I tend to believe that before metal frames and multi layers pin blocks and L-shape tuning levers (and normal temperature and humidity control) were in use, that is (funnily enough) more the kind of unisons piano players would go along with.

Please do not get me wrong, nothing to do with musical-ear-based "good intonation" that in my opinion as always been shareable as it is today; nothing to do with clean, long sounding and stable unisons that we are enabled to achieve, resulting from refined technology and (now called for, essential) skill.

Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

Regards, a.c.


alfredo
#2017700 - 01/20/13 08:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

Now Patrick's recordings will hear russian tuners
http://maxim-tuner.narod2.ru/ustroi...zno_predostavlennii_patrick_wingren_rpt/

#2017705 - 01/20/13 09:14 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra

#2017723 - 01/20/13 09:50 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra


Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.

Edit: More "tuning".

Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 01/20/13 10:13 AM.

alfredo
#2017752 - 01/20/13 11:16 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,065
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,065
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.

#2017755 - 01/20/13 11:20 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I tried yesterday to record "dull" unison (the dynamics is low as most of the energy is given immediately) then "open unison" (obtained with always one string frankly phasing on reverse than the others, that is in the 0.1 0,4 cts range but may certainly be more depending of th ih of the piano. I had only a low iH piano for those tests, that make them more difficult as low iH straighen the enveloppe very easely)

Despite that, you can make a tone that sort of implose on itself, or a tone that gives enough energy to the partials, producing more lengh, more dynamics, and the otherwhile missing sensation of an efficient attack in the pianist fingers.

The unbalance is obtained naturally while tuning, to perceive its presence you need to pluck the strings, playing with the hammer each string we are really in the ear discrimination zone (but I heard 3 different pitches on the first unison posted by Pat). This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

I'say one must stop thinking pitch and learn to perceive the energy level in its fingers an ears. Then, on a moderate ih piano the tuner can reinforce the tone of a partial.

Regulating the attack soon so it couple audibly the partials will rob harshness and transfer it to musical tone.

A single string (roslau) show a visible hop after a "hole" immediately after the attack noise. I believe that tuning from that moment is more efficient than regulating only the tail or even during the thick part of tone.

I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Only changing the force used to play is enough to change the final tone (hopefully, as changing our listening moment is not a good idea, it is tiring and you can bevwrong in tge end.

Nevertheless, one have to force himself a little to listen sooner, the best tip for that is to "listen with the playing hand". With time all that begin to be natural. Tuning is not tiring then.

Last edited by Kamin; 01/20/13 11:21 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2017804 - 01/20/13 01:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,283
Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.


Ando, I too like it, that Max writes as Max does, be him totally aware of it (like you presumably are)... I would do not like if Max was left with his petty ignorance in order to please you, Ando, as I would find that unhealthy.

You know, in our profession we may need to speak English sometime, and all the better if our English (along with our tuning) is correct, whether Ando loves that or not. wink
.


alfredo
#2018071 - 01/21/13 12:09 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Kamin,if I understand you correctly, the "basic clean unison" depends in this case the external force of impact with respect to the string . In my practice, I try to make the last tuning unison at FF (forte). However it is very hard to hear on FF inconspicuous beats between three strings

#2018072 - 01/21/13 12:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
Maximillyan Online embarrased
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Online Embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,994
KZ
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink

Ando supports you.

Max says Ando thanks

#2018134 - 01/21/13 03:00 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.....

....Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not ......


This from the same post!!!

Alfredo, you may think you have mastered our language, next, take a look at the cultural differences.

While we merely tolerate your laughable lapses, we find Max's endearing. Perhaps because he is less arrogant?

You might be almost as arrogant as me.

Last edited by rxd; 01/21/13 03:23 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Page 6 of 18 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 17 18

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Used QRS midi strip /Pianodisk midi strip
by Marc NY. 06/22/17 09:42 AM
1899 Knabe Concert Grand
by Keith D Kerman. 06/22/17 09:29 AM
Returning to Piano after awhile
by acdyer23. 06/22/17 06:38 AM
Perfect Pitch
by Wayne2467. 06/22/17 06:06 AM
KAWAI MP7: Generic Touch feature ???
by Nor. 06/22/17 04:24 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,387
Posts2,638,157
Members88,153
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0