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#2010778 - 01/07/13 05:53 PM Keyboard Patch Transition  
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Tyruke Offline
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Tyruke  Offline
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Hello, everyone.

I've been viewing these forums for a while now in order to get some good information on the various new digital pianos that are out there.

I currently play piano in my church, and am looking for a new keyboard that has a seamless transition between patches. Many times during a service I'll need to switch between an acoustic piano sound, an electric piano sound, a warm synth pad, or strings; and the keyboard we use now stops the sound as I switch patches.

What I would really like is for the ability to hold the sustain pedal on one patch and switch to another patch without the first one stopping until I let go of the sustain.

The two keyboards I have been reading about on this board that have really interested me are the Kawai ES7 and Roland FP7F. So I was wondering if these keyboards would function in the way I would want.

Any other keyboard suggestions are welcome. Speakers on the board are a plus, but not a priority.

Thank you very much.

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#2010857 - 01/07/13 09:28 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Tyruke, the ES7 should not truncate/cut-off sounds when changing instruments. However, there may be slight alterations in tonal character if the patches use different reverb or effect presets.

For example, if the 'Concert Grand' sound is selected (typically with just 'Room' reverb, but no additional effects) and you press and hold a key, then select the 'Classic E.P.' sound (which may have tremolo and amp simulator effects applied, depending on the patch settings), there may be a noticeable change to the acoustic piano sound (due to the additional E.P. effects kicking in). However, the acoustic piano sound itself will not be truncated/cut-off.

As always, I strongly recommend that you play-test any instruments you are considering extensively (testing specific scenarios such as that described above) before making a purchasing decision.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2010950 - 01/08/13 01:50 AM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Kawai James]  
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Tyruke Offline
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Hmm... I think I understand what you are saying.

Do you think the ES7 would be on display at the NAMM show this month?

I go to the show every year and I think I'm going to take your advice on trying out keyboards to make sure they can accommodate my needs. And what better place to do that than a music product convention? ( I can't believe I didn't think of this prior to my own post... lol )

I don't usually search out for Kawai's area, but if I'm able to try an ES7 I think I will.

#2010956 - 01/08/13 02:10 AM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Hello Tyruke,

Originally Posted by Tyruke
Do you think the ES7 would be on display at the NAMM show this month?


Yes, Kawai America will be exhibiting the ES7, along with most other digital models.

If you have the opportunity to visit NAMM, I cannot think of a better place to try out a wide range of instruments all under one roof.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
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#2010999 - 01/08/13 05:26 AM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Dave Horne Offline
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James, do you fly in and represent Kawai for NAMM?




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#2011005 - 01/08/13 05:46 AM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Dave, I'd absolutely love to attend NAMM, however places are very limited, and I'm pretty busy with work here at the head office.

Not to worry though - my colleagues at Kawai America always do an excellent job of representing the company and answering queries etc.,

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2011069 - 01/08/13 08:44 AM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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anotherscott Online content
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Originally Posted by Tyruke
I currently play piano in my church, and am looking for a new keyboard that has a seamless transition between patches. Many times during a service I'll need to switch between an acoustic piano sound, an electric piano sound, a warm synth pad, or strings; and the keyboard we use now stops the sound as I switch patches.

What I would really like is for the ability to hold the sustain pedal on one patch and switch to another patch without the first one stopping until I let go of the sustain.

What keyboard are you using now? In general, Rolands and Kurzweils have this feature. Korg has it in the Kronos. Some keyboards have it but only if you operate them in a certain mode (Yamaha Motif/MOX/MX are examples, I believe, also possibly some Korgs). At least some Casios have had it.

As James explained, there are also cases where it "kind of" works... the feature is there, but you'll hear an audible glitch as the fx change between the patch you're coming from and the patch you're switching to. So in some cases, it may work smoothly between some patches but not others. However, often, this can be addressed by editing the sounds to remove the fx (they may not be crucial to your use of the sound), and saving those versions of the sounds. Switching between those versions of the sounds that don't have the fx can then be seamless. But not every piano permits you to store fx-disabled versions of their sounds.

#2011486 - 01/08/13 11:29 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: anotherscott]  
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Tyruke Offline
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Originally Posted by anotherscott

What keyboard are you using now? In general, Rolands and Kurzweils have this feature. Korg has it in the Kronos. Some keyboards have it but only if you operate them in a certain mode (Yamaha Motif/MOX/MX are examples, I believe, also possibly some Korgs). At least some Casios have had it.


The keyboard I use now is a Yamaha P-95. When switching between acoustic piano and electric piano there is no hiccup, but when I switch to a string patch the sound stops completely. Also, the P-95 does not have a warm synth pad sound which is sound our worship leader loves very much. The piano sound also leaves much to be desired, so I figured an upgrade was in order.

I did try a few keyboards at a guitar center a while back, and many of them had some sort of performance mode that allowed me to load up four sounds at once and adjust there volumes with the four faders on the keyboard. I thought this would help, but I noticed an issue for me. If I loaded up a piano, electric piano, strings, and pad all at once the polyphony is being used up by all four patches.

So let's say I need to play a song that's only piano. Even though the other three faders for the other patches are turned down, they are still technically being played and therefore eating away at my polyphony. What happened when I tried playing the piano was that many notes kept getting cut off because the polyphony was being used up. I don't remember all the keyboards I tried that worked like this, but it wasn't what I needed.

I did see a video of Jordan Rudess demoing the Korg Kronos and he did mention and demonstrate that the Kronos had seamless patch transitions, which is exactly what I was looking for. However, I wonder if a workstation like that is overkill when I would really only be using about four sounds.

#2021344 - 01/25/13 07:54 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Tyruke Offline
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I just checked out NAMM today and had a chance to play a lot of keyboards. I was pleased to find out that the Kawai ES7 did exactly what I wanted in regard to switching patches. The only issue I had was I couldn't figure out how to make the sustain work on the string patches. Otherwise it sounded beautiful.

#2021348 - 01/25/13 08:05 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyruke
I just checked out NAMM today and had a chance to play a lot of keyboards. I was pleased to find out that the Kawai ES7 did exactly what I wanted in regard to switching patches. The only issue I had was I couldn't figure out how to make the sustain work on the string patches. Otherwise it sounded beautiful.


Could you explain what difficulty you had with string patches sustaining ?

I tried it on my ES7 and it worked as I would have expected.

It might be a little less noticeable with strings as they tend to linger anyway.

However, I did notice they stayed longer with the sustain pedal depressed than without.



Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2021352 - 01/25/13 08:10 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: dmd]  
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Tyruke Offline
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Well normally when I play string patches on other digital pianos, when I step on the sustain pedal the sound continues indefinitely until I let go.

On the string pad and warm string sound it didn't do that.

#2021357 - 01/25/13 08:21 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyruke
Well normally when I play string patches on other digital pianos, when I step on the sustain pedal the sound continues indefinitely until I let go.

On the string pad and warm string sound it didn't do that.


You may wish to check that further.

I have never experienced that type of behavior on a dp.

Of course, I have really never attempted to sustain a tone indefinitely with only the sustain pedal pressed while releasing the keys.

None of the patches on the ES7 work that way. I tried them all.

The sustain pedal allows the tone to decay naturally instead of being dampened by the damper(s).

As far as I know, that is how they all work because that is the way an acoustic piano works.

But, as always ... I might be wrong.



Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2021366 - 01/25/13 08:41 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Tyruke]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Tyruke/dmd, this behaviour can be adjusted in the ES7's 'Basic Settings' menu.

From page 80 of the owner's manual:

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2021380 - 01/25/13 09:29 PM Re: Keyboard Patch Transition [Re: Kawai James]  
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Tyruke/dmd, this behaviour can be adjusted in the ES7's 'Basic Settings' menu.


Well, there you go.

Just in the nick of time, I might add.

I was afraid this day was going to get away without me learning something new smile

Tyruke: I checked it out and it absolutely does work.


Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur

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