Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Just discovered this 'cheat' that Horowitz does.... :-)

Oy.

In fact, double oy.

I don't pretend to be "objective" about any such thing, but as best I can tell you, this was an extraordinary performance.

Mark, I have to admit.. if I close my eyes I can't even notice the 'effect'.

So?

(I can.)

Wherever Horowitz is now he would be laughing at this thread. Majoring in minoring.

I also noticed this when Horowitz in Moscow came out on VHS. Years later, I was able to obtain a copy of the 1978 White House recital - and darned if he doesn't do the same thing there. (The difference is that in 1978 he plays the scales faster and with less pedal - likely as the East Room of the White House is different acoustically from a concert hall.) So, I pulled out my old Horowitz records and listened to them at 16rpm (where you can hear each note - although the pitch is off) and he was doing the same thing back in 1945.

Based on that, I concluded that VH did this to "drive the point home" on that final b-flat, making the scale into a crescendo - which is not easy to do on an upward run.

One may approve of the cheat Horowitz devised or not. But it's definitely NOT a concession to old age.

That was my first ever tech trick.

And it was Horowitz that I used it on -- trying to figure out how he did some of what he did.

The main piece was Chopin's C# minor Mazurka, Op. 30 #4. It wasn't fingerwork wizardry I was trying to figure out, it was his magical rhythms. The way he played this mazurka seemed to defy any quantifiable rhythms, and in fact before I saw the sheet music I couldn't imagine how it was notated. Although, all I had to do was listen to just about anybody else's recording, and the rhythm was obvious. Even after getting the score and working on the piece myself, I still couldn't figure out exactly what he was doing with the rhythm. Then I realized I could do this trick you mentioned.

And doggone, when I slowed it down by half, the rhythm sounded just about exactly normal, i.e. just like it's written and how other people play it. So it remained a mystery. More recently, somehow or other I sort of got the hang of how he did it and kinda sorta kinda could do it.

BTW I think it was our banned (or maybe just 'inactive') member "PartyPianist" (who I suspect has been back under "another" identity -- 'another' being in quotes because it's really the same identity ) who posted a recording of this mazurka that was an excellent imitation of the Horowitz, if we forget for the moment about the recording quality, and professed not to know anything about Horowitz's recordings.

There are at least two studio recordings where he didn't feel the need to "drive the point home". Since he did it live, he may have had another reason to 'cheat'.

Triple oy.

Something that's gotten lost here is, what he did isn't a technical facilitation. It's a complication. It doesn't make it easier to play the passage. It makes it harder.

I'm sure people could say, 'maybe it's harder for you, what makes you think it was harder for Horowitz.' I don't really; I think it wasn't hard for him either way, from a strictly technical standpoint. But I'm saying that it appears that in general, for human beings it would seem to be harder this way. For what it's worth, I tried it a few times this way. It's dam hard to coordinate, and I found it very hard to do. In fact, I couldn't really do it and realized that it would take an awful lot of work to have a chance to make it work, consistently and reliably.

Anybody who doubts that, try it yourself!
And remember, it's not just a thing of 'playing the notes.' You have to do it fluently and with some 'effect.'

I tried a few months ago - and failed miserably.

Composers are not slave drivers; people say there are "degrees" to which you are "allowed" to interpret a piece...but, um...the very nature of saying such is in and of itself admitting that the line of allowance may be different for everyone. I mean, um, unless I'm very much mistaken, Chopin himself encouraged improvisation and individuality within his (and others') music; I see no wrong in Horowitz (who I must say isn't my favourite pianist) carrying out this wish. Who amongst us hasn't added the eighth below here and an unwritten ornament there? I don't know, maybe you haven't But, um, I'm sure (without doubt ) Horowitz was just trying to play the piece how he, at the time, *felt* it should be played...if that's the case...fair enough, right?
Xxx

As somebody who trained in advanced classical guitar, I find it amusing how bent out of shape pianists get about changing notes here or there. In the guitar world, yes even the virtuosic classical world, it is pretty much accepted that all guitarists engage in some level or personalisation of pieces. Sometimes it's a tonal thing, sometimes it's to flesh out the harmony a bit more, sometime notes are omitted to permit better voice leading or ease of chord changes. Guitarists accept that composers are fallible and there are sometimes ways to enhance what they were aiming for. This seems to be far more contentious in the piano world. Piano seems to adopt a certain competitive aspect such that it almost feels like musical olympics. I don't advocate messing with the harmony or melody lines in classical works, but minor things like a doubled note, an omitted tone in a chord etc, for it's no big deal at all. I appreciate such individuality.

For me, this thread is the very definition of a storm in a teacup.

double post

The degree that some posters go to repeat their ideas over and over again and insist they are right about such a minor matter almost beyond belief. Sometimes PW makes the United States Congress
look highly functional in comparison.

We add to things when we can.

Some people, like you, apparently would like to subtract.

As I pointed out a few weeks ago and as hopefully you have noticed, I have been trying to be friendly and supportive to your posts whenever possible, despite your hostility and continued hostility. I hope that eventually you will be able to respond in kind.
Just leaving me alone would be fine too.

You said the same thing about 20 times in this thread...often repeating yourself several times in a single post. You continually said that an opinion other than the one you have were just wrong. I don't think many like having conversations like this where one person hogs the conversation and is endlessly repetitive.

I don't think anything can make Congress look functional.. except maybe an episode of Honey Boo-Boo.

Ah, the love-fest continues !!! You guys live in the same city. Why not get together for coffee ?? You might actually like each other !!

Not in person we wouldn't, but hopefully on here we can coexist.

In real life, we gravitate toward or away from people by good instinct, according to how we mesh or not. On the net, we're together with people we wouldn't ever get involved with in real life. It's one of the great things about it, but also one of the challenges.


edit: John's post (below) made me realize that this didn't come out how I intended it. I didn't mean we meet only such people on the net; I meant also.

" On the net, we're together with people we wouldn't ever get involved with in real life. It's one of the great things about it, but also one of the challenges."

Mark, I take issue with this statement. I tend to accumulate friends,many dating back to grade school. I am involved with sports cars as much as things piano and have since accumulated what have proven to be some of my closest friends by way of the internet. These various groups tend to throw like-minded people together and you will meet and interact with many folks that 15 years ago, you simply couldn't have come in contact with. Naturally there is a weeding out process, but I wouldn't be so inclined to discount it.

As to VH's performance, I tend to agree with you. For the assertions of less than adequate facility in his later years, that's balderdash. If you read some of the bios, there are quite a few assertions of prescription drug overuse and also a less than adequate practice regime. If you are able to watch the performance of the Rach.3 with Mehta there are some dastardly sections that he literally flies through cleanly and effortlessly and others maybe less so, but musically fabulous. Though for instance the early performances of the concerto are more technically satisfying, I wouldn't trade them for five minutes of the later performance. For Funerailles or the 6th Rhapsody, give me the early stuff! Was that old "Homage to Liszt" album ever remastered?

John, my post must not have been clear, because I agree with everything you said, 100%. In my attempt to be brief (and I think you can understand why I would have wanted to make such a post brief), I was unclear. I didn't mean that on the net we come into contact only or mainly with un-like-minded people or people that we wouldn't meet or be drawn to in real life; I meant also. The multitude and breadth of whom we meet and interact with on the net (and sometimes, relatively rarely, whom we can't help interacting with, which is the main difference I meant) is extremely enriching, but in some instances it's also (as I gently put it) a challenge.

BTW my introduction to online forums was on a car site.
For quite a while it was the only thing I did on the computer except for eBay and Amazon.

About "Homage to Liszt": I still have my vinyl.
Dunno if it's been remastered, and I never check on things like that, because I wouldn't prefer them to the old vinyl. If anything, I wish modern CD's and the like were done on old vinyl.